Stan Rodski – Your Current View of Situation ≠ Best View of Situation

[00:00:08] Duff Watkins: Welcome to the podcast, 10 lessons. It took me 50 years to learn Spense wisdom, not cliches finalities or platitudes to an international audience of rising leaders.

[00:00:19] My name is Duff Watkins, and I’m your host. Our guest today is neuroscientist. Stan Rodski. Stan has worked for 30 years and well he’s worked with professional sports teams, Olympic teams, men, and women, boys, and girls. And now he’s here working with you and me, Stan, welcome to the show. Great to have you.

[00:00:36] Stan Rodski: thank you, Duff.

[00:00:37] It’s a pleasure to be here.

[00:00:39] Duff Watkins: Let me tell you why here. True story. I’m talking to our podcast producer, Robert Hossary years ago, and he was telling me about this phenomenon of adult coloring book. And I said, what is that a thing? He said, yeah, it’s a thing. I said, it’s gotta be some American bullshit.

[00:00:56] And now I do some research and I found out one. It’s not American. It’s Australia two. It’s not bullshit. It’s neuroscientist. And you’re the guy that started all this with the coloration. And how do I know that? Because I’m listening to your audio book, the mindfulness of neuroscience on my phone, and it’s in fact there was a copy right behind you.

[00:01:16] So it’s not just a thing. It became quite a phenomen. Uh, is it true? Your books were featured on the Oprah Winfrey show. I mean, there is no higher accolade than that right?

[00:01:26] Stan Rodski: No, look I can absolutely tell you that’s the truth. And, um, you know, barring the fact that you can’t have U in the word color.

[00:01:35] I thought, um, Americans seeing the book would, uh, would never occur, but, a, San Francisco, publisher took it on with, the others. And, and the story was, we got a, an email saying we were embargoed, which was, a few months before it’s official launch by her. And we weren’t allowed to talk about it until, until she broke the news of the book.

[00:02:00] And, uh, and she, and her best friend, um, just loved the whole concept. And I was pleased that they did because, It isn’t an infantile activity. It’s actually, um, a, a very powerful tool in the, um, in, in the cupboard that, uh, can be used to help us, um, perform better by relaxing first.

[00:02:24] Duff Watkins: the neuroscience is what convinced me.

[00:02:26] and that’s why you’re on the show. And that’s why, because I leave so many gaps of my knowledge. You know, we need people like you to fill them in. Let’s let us start with, what was your first business lesson? Stan

[00:02:38] Stan Rodski: I’d have to say that. Um, there’ve been a lot for a start and, and I guess, um, as a scientist, The thing that I learned was, and I’m not sure whether these words will communicate across every culture, but there’s a lot of mumbo jumbo in science and, and many of my colleagues would use, um, a lot of words.

[00:03:03] Now I’ll give you an example of where I’m coming with my first lesson. what is a cognitive neuroscientist? That’s me and I can sit here and sprawl to you about all of the other technical mumbo jumbo words that would define me, or I could say to you, you know what Duff, the way that you can get your head around me is that I’m a plumber and an electrician for the brain.

[00:03:34] I’m about the pipes, the taps, the fluids, and the electrical circuit board of the brain. Now that’s the lesson that I would give my, I gave myself very early in the piece and I give every, every student doctoral, whatever who came through my, through my labs or businesses, the same lesson that is, um, turn off the mumbo, jumbo, the jargon, and turn on the insight.

[00:04:06] People want to understand easily and quickly, you know, stuff that is usually out of their framework out of the, the norm for them. And just more words that need definitions will never cut it. So the better you are. So my business lesson very early in the piece was, always make sure what you’re trying to talk about is understood, not just you raising your flag saying, you know, I’ve got a doctorate in mathematical neurosciences and, um, it’s, uh, it’s about explain to me in a way that I can understand. And that was my first particularly to start thinking about neuroscientists and, and people working in very technical, specialized areas.

[00:04:55] If you can’t do that, then you are not gonna get very far.

[00:04:59] Duff Watkins: My doctorate is in psychotherapy, so I know a lot of mumbo jumbo myself, but I use the same analogy Stan. I said, basically, it’s like being a plumber, you serve an apprenticeship.

[00:05:08] You keep doing you, you get better. You work with people who are better than you, you learn. And eventually, hopefully you get kind of good at the psychotherapy thing. It really is just that simple.

[00:05:17] Stan Rodski: Look, and, and as a behaviorist. Um, for me, you know, there are plumbers who just there expertise is in the pipes and there are those that are in, involved in dealing with the people who use the pipes.

[00:05:29] And that’s the use side is what you are talking about for me. It’s um, which was where the coloring books came from. In all of the years that I worked as a psychologist and, and I did that for, you know, 30 more or so those years, the hardest part is after their visit, keeping them motivated to do what you’ve asked them to do, or that they’ve agreed to do . But inevitably, the further they got away from you, the less they did, why would you not be motivated? And then of course you see that people would come through a medical practice, diagnosed with cancers and not take their pills. Why would you not take your pills? What would motivate someone to not do something to save their life?

[00:06:14] And that’s the, that’s the core of you have to actually be in some form. You know, it’s very hard to hear the messages. It’s very hard to practice the content, be motivated unless you are actually coming from a place of peace place of homeo stasis. And the coloring was about that. The coloring was about in my practice, if I got them to color and this was purely coincidental. I happened to have, EEG technology on, on this young lady who had, had quite a serious mental illness attached to, and, and, and it was just per chance. I had been playing around with the idea of the brain actually does rest and, and settle and calm because you see it with children when they color, why wouldn’t an adult do that.

[00:07:00] And she colored and I’m watching the EEG and she’s calming. And the more calm she got, the more able to listen to the messages there’s science, working across your desktop. That you would suddenly be able to understand that at the heart of our motivation we’ve, we’ve actually gotta be able to take in these messages.

[00:07:21] We’ve got to be. From my view, in this state of homeostasis, um, in the state of balance because we just, you know, unless we are there, our brains won’t respond in the way that we want

[00:07:35] to pipes. Won’t turn on. Mm-hmm the electrical circuit board. Won’t won’t work the way we want it to.

[00:07:40] Duff Watkins: Well, that leads, I think, to the first lesson.

[00:07:42] Lesson 1: In God we trust, all others must bring data

[00:07:42] Duff Watkins: Number one is, and God, we trust all others must bring data.

[00:07:47] Stan Rodski: Yes. And, and, um, I, I actually used that, uh, that saying just, um, a couple of days ago at a, at a Catholic college. And , I said, look, I have to, I have to take a stance here. Um, I’m not sure where you are gonna come through when I say this.

[00:08:03] Um, but if we are going to implement some of these ideas, um, there are only gonna be ideas supported by data. The coloring book idea was supported by data. You know, it didn’t, it wasn’t just a manufactured idea with an anecdotal outcome we, we needed to see that there was an actual influence I’ve never left this. I, I, it’s not that it, that it has to, um, drive us. It just has to support us. We, we, we have a brain that requires data. It is built for distance evaluation. It is built for evaluating, danger. It’s built for fear, you know, whatever else you wanna say. Um, you know, our, uh, our original, um, ancient brain in our deep limbic system on the top of our brain stem, it’s not changed in 400,000 years.

[00:09:02] And of course, the million years of years of development to get to us, to our current state, and it still relies on data, but often, uh, not good data, you know, it, it makes things, our brain makes things up unfortu. So because the real world and the fantasy world of, of thought are the same thing to our brain, but still my, my, my contention, is that we still, can have our beliefs, but we really, as a human, as a human, we need data.

[00:09:34] that was the, that was behind my, and that’s a, to me, that’s a great, that’s a great wisdom on pulling that off the Americans a little bit there with the, yeah.

[00:09:44] Duff Watkins: That I, I should say to the, I guess people know on American coinage, there is in, in, emblazed the phrase in God we trust and the joke being that everybody else has to come with data.

[00:09:58] And, but that’s what persuaded me, Stan. I mean, the idea of coloring you, you cited the science, you, you pioneered some of the research yourself. It’s like. I’ll simplify, coloring, believe it or not, for whatever reason, doesn’t matter. Coloring, relaxes the brain and thus allows for peak performance because, and you’re an expert in stress.

[00:10:21] I hope everybody knows this. By now, the more relaxed, calm you are, the better able you are to perform. And I can tell you from my own experience and I use psychometrics, the more, the more stressed you are, the more your attention narrows and your probability of making errors forced or unforced rises significantly.

[00:10:42] So whether business school, uh, studying, uh, sports, whatever, a state of, um, relaxation, not sleepiness, but relaxed alertness is optimal.

[00:10:57] Stan Rodski: It, it simply can’t, the brain cannot do anything except the, not optimal in a stressed situation. Now pressure is good. Pressure is not stress. Pressure is converted by resilience into either stress or performance.

[00:11:15] We get up in the morning. We’re pressured that doesn’t necessarily stress us. Our amount of resilience. You know, we then bounce in according to our resilience, but you know, every day is a new day. Every day on, on above ground is a good day and, and our messaging starts to go and we, and that turns into a performance.

[00:11:34] We get outta bed, but if it turned into a stress, we stay in bed. You know, I, I, I feel ill, I can’t function. I I’m sick of the world. I’m sick of work. It’s that process and, and this, um, and this idea of homeostasis in there, this whole system is lubricated, you know, and is able to act optimally, you know, that circuit board that I’ve been talking about as much as we can stay, um, in homeostasis or allostasis now, allostasis of course, um, be an allostatic load, probably being the thing.

[00:12:12] That’s, you know, the more I’ve got up every morning. Um, and, and I, and I have the resilience to do that and I convert it to performance rather than stress and do the wrong things. Um, that process, I mean, when we are much younger, we bounce up, you know, it’s another day. Um, but we’re a little bit like a tree that image of a tr lone tree on a cliff, you know, with the wind blowing it over.

[00:12:39] You know, um, well, when we were young and, and our homeostasis, we bounced back homeostasis being bounced back. coming back into that. We bounced back, but you can imagine we, we, humans are like that tree. You know, the, the wind has blown and blown and blown and blown. And our bounce back is no longer that far.

[00:12:59] Our bounce back is well on a really bad windy day. We, we are almost touching the ground, but when we bounce back, we, we bounce back only so far. That’s called Allostatic load and AIS load is, is the part in which most of us are operating. We, we, we, we can get so far back, but even so, you know, we, we need to have that bounce back.

[00:13:22] We, because the brain, once all those information come, comes into our sensory thalamus, you know, remember everything. Everything that comes into your brain, goes through into the sensory thalamus. It decides whether it’s sight sound, um, touch, feel it, then shoots it. It’s supposed to shoot it straight up there into your, into your frontal cortex, which is sort of the, the command and control part of the brain.

[00:13:50] And it’s sort of thinking, okay, that’s a visual. Okay. I’m gonna shoot that to that part of the brain. And on its way, it jumps into a thing called the hippo campus, which is where all our learning occurs. It, it says, have you seen this before? Have I done this before? Have I, you know, where, what would I normally do?

[00:14:07] And then it shoots it back. Um, and then it, and then in its final effort, remember we we’re talking milliseconds, you know, I I’m describing something over a minute, but it’s taking millisecond. And at the impact there, when operating in homeostasis, From homeostasis, it will then pass by the parts of the brain, the deep limbic system, um, uh, where it’s got all the emotional stuff.

[00:14:35] And then it sort of goes, well, you know, is, is, you know, is there something else I should add? And then it turns into an action, but when we’re, but when we’re out of balance, when we are not in homeostasis, it just goes straight to the deep limbic. It just goes to the amygdala. It’s hijacked. It spins around in there for a, for, for too long, it gets more and more emotional.

[00:14:57] And it was our ancient brain. We, we are, we are built for that, you know, something jumping out of the dark at us. There’s, there’s no need, if you’re about to be run over the bus to run it past your frontal lobe and check whether buses are gonna hurt you. you, you, you, you are just going to react. And that’s and that’s that emotional component

[00:15:17] Duff Watkins: and always like pointing out.

[00:15:19] I mean, that system that we’re talking about, it’s not a, it’s not a flaw in a system. Let’s just take a moment to appreciate that system for keeping us and all of our ancestors alive so we can have this conversation. no,

[00:15:31] Stan Rodski: absolutely correct. It’s just that it goes out balance. It, it, when, when it gets locked in, that’s why, you know, in a certain flash moment, you’ll act in a, you know, in, in everyday people language, you you’ll just act in a way that you never would.

[00:15:45] Why have I just forgotten the name of the managing director? Or why am I a footballer? Who, who, who normally for a living kicks this ball or hits this ball a thousand times a day. And today in a pressure moment, I hit it or kicked it or whatever, like I’m a five year old? Why would that occur when I’m, I’m actually have my brains, um, uh, motor cortexes actually practiced to within a nanosecond of its life that act in exactly the same way.

[00:16:19] Why would that have occurred? Isn’t brain science interest?

[00:16:22] Duff Watkins: Well,

[00:16:23] Lesson 2: Your brain: the more we know, the bigger the mystery

[00:16:23] Duff Watkins: that takes me to lesson number two, the more we learn about the brain, the bigger the mystery it remains.

[00:16:30] Stan Rodski: Yeah, look. Absolutely. And, and the, the number that we Bandi around is often, you know, it’s three pounds of spaghetti, bolognese in white source.

[00:16:38] You know, this brain allows it, you know, it’s an analogy I usually use when I’m hungry, um, for obvious reasons,

[00:16:47] That’s its size, you know, and, and yet it is so unbelievably mysterious to us. Um, and, and I would’ve, I would say back in 1970, 79, when I first started this sort of work, which is my goodness, how old am I?

[00:17:07] we, We are looking at a world in which we always thought we’d had our, a grasp of about 10%. Um, you know what, all these years later I haven’t changed. All I’ve changed is the 10% I thought I knew I no longer know. And the, and I’ve got another 10% that I now think I know, but I’m almost guaranteed not knowing

[00:17:33] And, and this will link back to my, the last question that you have. Mm-hmm But my goodness, if I could just live another 40 years. I would be in heaven because for me, between 1980 and 2000, 2005, we were in a, the technology hadn’t jumped for us. You know, it was still big machines, hospital data, you know, it were now it’s mobile data, you know, we’ve even got machines now where I can put the machine on my head in your head and I can start monitoring how, whether in fact we have, for example, and this is a great debate for another another day, but, um, debate free will, if you truly have free will then why did your brain actually send you a message before.

[00:18:32] When I said that you thought that, but before you thought that something else happened in your brain and I just saw it. So, so, so tell me again about free will I,

[00:18:45] Duff Watkins: I know, I know this, I read this years ago and, and I am still trying to wrap my mind around it,

[00:18:53] Lesson 3: Mind/Body connection is real

[00:18:53] Duff Watkins: which takes us to point number three.

[00:18:55] Stan Rodski: Yeah. You gotta move this along.

[00:18:57] Duff Watkins: point number three, the mind body connection is real. I knew that, but I didn’t know how real it is and how, fast it works, but that’s what you are illustrating.

[00:19:06] Stan Rodski: Yeah, absolutely. And, and I think we see that a lot. If, we move into the behavioral sciences, it’s like, the current work going on with depression, and certain body hormones and my goodness, What’s what’s causing what in here, you know, these are really this causation effects, um, in terms of the mind and the body, but the best one has been, of course, the, the discoveries in the autonomic nervousness. Central nervous system, autonomic nervous system, autonomic nervous system para and sympathetic systems push and pull, push, and pull.

[00:19:41] Yep. It, it, it controls all of our organs and it does. So, um, subconsciously even unconsciously, some things are subconscious. You can affect your breathing, um, but you can’t affect how, how quickly your kid kidneys are operating or, you know, these are, you know, there are a whole bunch of systems trying to keep you currently at the right temperature.

[00:20:02] Now you’re not thinking about those. It it’s, it’s busily trying to keep you in homeostasis. Because that’s the whole point of our existence and, and this sort of mind, body connection where we actually, few colleagues of mine went on into neurosurgery and, and, you know, into the medical professions, they used to always say to me, well, Stan, you know, when one day when you can actually find, um, physical way in which a thought.

[00:20:30] Turned into anxiety. If you can finally tell me that I’ll believe the mind body connection. And of course, when we actually found that the production, you know, when, when, when anxiety occurs and cortisol, and we could see the cortisol occur in there as a result of the para and sympathetic nervous systems trying to balance themselves.

[00:20:56] And then we add in the, we bring in the bioscientist a little bit more like me in this process to go well, isn’t that interesting when the cortisol goes in there and stays in there too long, it produces, um, a protein, a beta protein, and a, and a protein by definition has substance. And that was why the first few times we found that, that the buildup in those proteins would happen in the heart and the head.

[00:21:24] And of course, that’s heart attack and aneurysm. And, and so there was the link, there was the mind body link that was like a, we just landed on Mars. like really, type of link in that science of mind and body connection, because my mind, you know, my scent remember, and my brain doesn’t differentiate between reality or not reality, I can be anxious because I just think something’s going to happen to me.

[00:21:52] It’s not that something will happen to me or is happening to me. It will happen to me. And, and if it’s, and if I maintain that for too long, as you would know, as a behaviorist, all of the consequences of that are, you know, you can see the consequences, you know, people break out, they start sweating, they can’t remember names, they get headaches, they feel sick, you know, and, but we could never find that that connection in there. And, and then that we did find that connection there it was.

[00:22:24] Here’s my, brief for executives, um, in, in the process here, why was it in our practice over 20 years? We, we monitored stress levels in using conventional psychometrics. Um, but then along came people like me, who just started doing biometrics and as markers, et cetera, but just for the sake of it, um, we would, we, we found that progressively the stress levels of this executive group, and we would have 1800 of them a year come through for their executive health of value then coming because they were sick.

[00:22:54] They came in because their company said we want, you know, you’re worth a lot of money to us. Live and well. Um, but what we found was they were progressively more, you know, something like. 20% would say, you know, it’s 25 years ago, they were stressed and, and today, or up until a year or two ago, nearly 40% of them would say that they were, you know, struggling with life, okay.

[00:23:18] And then we would go for, so are you drinking? No, not that much anymore. Smoking? No. Are, are you eating properly? Yes, I know all about that. Are you exercising? Well, you know, clearly senior executives and executive types, they still, you know, sort of carry pounds. So I should not say too much about that, but my point is we, we think our lifestyles are much better, but then, and, and even though, you know, we’ve got all of this working in a certain way, um, we turn around and we go, isn’t that interesting diabetes two, is raging amongst them.

[00:23:53] Why would diabetes two, which is an environmental, a lifestyle diabetes, where, where they are, in fact, doing all the things by biologically, all the right things to not be, um, I’m talking borderline, you know, the, your doctor would give you the pamphlet saying you are borderline diabetes, two. Nearly all of them, nearly all of them.

[00:24:19] It’s that close. Why would that be when they’ve actually, um, got so much going on that’s right about, you know, because they’re well educated, they know what they should be, and they’re doing, and they’re partners are probably bashing them up all the time, tipping them, you know? Um, and the answer of course is the one thing that was growing in there, which was stress. Stress for me is the release and the maintenance of those cortisol hormones in their system, cortisol and the release of these amyloid proteins. This is the marker in here and is behind so much, that’s sort of busying itself trying to kill us.

[00:24:56] Lesson 4: Reflex to reaction in 0.25 seconds

[00:24:56] Duff Watkins: Yeah. It leads to the next one, which, which is, you’ll have to, translate this one for me, reflex, to reaction in 0.2, five seconds.

[00:25:06] Stan Rodski: Yes. So, remember. I, I was talking about, the sensory, thalamus and in comes the information through there and it whips it through the brain.

[00:25:15] When our brain operates in its, information processing, the average person, adult person that takes, a quarter of a second to process anything that’s coming in. Takes a quarter of a second. The best a human brain can do is, 0.1 of a second in terms of processing and a reflex, which is not a reaction is 0.08 of a second.

[00:25:43] So that’s how quick the brain works Why is that important? Because , if I go back to my data is everything. Um, we now have techniques where we can very quickly assess how quickly your brain processes information, and if it’s being hijacked. This was the, the point of this one. If it’s being hijacked, you can suddenly go out to, um, 0.35 or 0.45.

[00:26:08] It means I’ve got a way of knowing whether your brain is actually, processing efficiently or is being hijacked by your emotional controllers. And it gives me, um, as a, when I’m talking with, um, students, um, who want to process information quickly and more efficiently, um, so that they can get better results or athletes, for example, it’s the same, same thing.

[00:26:35] Like if, if a person came to see you, um, Duff and they’re, and they’re anxious and you are helping them through that process and they’re, but wouldn’t it be lovely for you to be able to, in a couple of, in a couple of minutes, set a be set, their personal benchmark, you know, where, where their brain’s operating and actually through your endeavors know that you’ve freed up that connection in the brain.

[00:27:01] You know, you, you you’ve actually, you are, you are now able to minimize the disruption coming out of the emotional controls.

[00:27:08] Duff Watkins: And I think the point is our nervous systems get hijacked all the bloody time by fear, stress, imaginary fears, circumstances, conditions. The things that prey in our mind and all, and the things that we allow to prey on our mind, uh, allow this hijack to occur.

[00:27:28] And the hijacking of the central nervous system has definite measurable physiological results.

[00:27:35] Stan Rodski: Correct.

[00:27:35] Lesson 5: 20 minutes x 20 meters x 20 seconds = recalibrated brain

[00:27:35] Duff Watkins: Hmm. All right. Lesson number five, 20 minutes, times 20 meters, times 20 seconds. This sounds like my workout routine sounds

[00:27:45] Stan Rodski: like intervals well, again, from a neuroscience perspective, what we know is that you need. To change your brain’s focus every 20 minutes. You know, you, you, you and I, um, are now 40 minutes in and, and if you actually want to recalibrate your brain, bring it back into, not jumping around everywhere, trying to work out what I’m about to say and what you are about to say to me and what have you.

[00:28:13] But for all of the people listening, the optimum would be every 20 minutes. You look up from what you are doing. You find a spot 20 meters away, and you focus on that for 20 seconds. That’s what that meant. You have recalibrated your brain.

[00:28:32] Duff Watkins: Let me make sure I understand this, this sounds, this sounds pretty idiot proof.

[00:28:36] Every 20 minutes, I look at something 20 meters away focused on it or allow it to gaze at it for 20 seconds. Yes. And that recalibrates my brain.

[00:28:46] Stan Rodski: Yep. It resets it. Yeah. And we know that it does that. Because we we’ve watched it in do so in the monitors, but, but it’s just anecdotally it sort of makes sense.

[00:28:56] And we actually prove this with, um, gamers. So gamers are the one, you know, if we go back to the 0.25, um, gamers, those are the professional kids that that the, the video games in competitions that these days make millions of dollars with millions of people watching them, um, play for 20 minute sessions.

[00:29:18] And, they were , the source of the study for me because, if they are operating at 0.25, ala the previous one. Um, they are already retired. They operate, uh, between, 0.1 and 0.15, you know, they’re so fast and there is, and, and that’s why they’re about 17 years of age. , you know, cause that processing, um, is unencumbered,

[00:29:48] Duff Watkins: Stan, is that a reflex or a reaction you were

[00:29:50] Stan Rodski: describing? No, no, no. A reflex operates below 0.1 it operates at 0.08. Okay.

[00:29:59] And that’s the reason for that is it doesn’t go through the brain. It just operates through the nervous system. when we have a reaction, it goes through the brain and it can’t go through the brain, any quicker than 0.1 of a second. Okay. Or a hundred millisecond, whatever you prefer.

[00:30:16] Traders are another one that use it. So I, I use this with, um, over a hundred traders operating in one of the world’s big banks and you can imagine they’ve got multiple, computers on their desk.

[00:30:27] And I was fascinated when they brought me into that bank, um, to, to look at the neurology of this and cause I was fascinated. So you just did a 50 million trade and I can see all your computers there. Can you tell me what bit of information on those screens. Determined the point where you went, yep. I’ll buy 50 million of those.

[00:30:50] And they looked at, they would look at me and they go, oh, well, you know, probably this one or I said, really. And, um, um, is that how it works? You, you, you, you just got all this information and at some point you just go, woo. Uh, and you know, you’re talking 50 million, you know, maybe 500 million for some of the top traders.

[00:31:16] And, and that just made me think, well, wait a minute, let me have a look at your, let let’s look at the statistic. You know, the data on this. So what makes you a winning trader? Well, my, my bets are I, I win 51% of the time. Oh, well, what makes a bad trader? Well, I win a bad trader wins 49% of the time. So your whole world is between 49 and 51.

[00:31:41] That is your whole world. yep. That’s it. And I said, so you made a 50 million dollar trade operating on the basis that you are at 51. You, you, you are, you are 1% better than tossing a coin on what to pick. Yep. I said, whoa. Then what you are picking is processing through your brain and what, and if that’s not processing well, you are the 49, aren’t you?

[00:32:09] Yes. And that’s that they, that, that was the basis of it that their processing speed allowed them to take in so many data points. had to process all of those to make that decision. Yeah.

[00:32:23] Duff Watkins: Does processing slow with age?

[00:32:26] Stan Rodski: Yes.

[00:32:26] Duff Watkins: Yeah. I was afraid of that. I was let me ask again, just processing slow with age?

[00:32:34] Stan Rodski: But we can also improve with age.

[00:32:35] So, you and I will never operate at the level of the gamers. We have too many other pathways in our brain for information, to process itself along, you know, it’s gonna go everywhere and we will never, um, have that because of our experience, because remember we are not, we, this is not reflex.

[00:32:57] This is reaction and a reaction must pass across the emotional controllers of the. and the older we get the, the more of those reactions and pathways and, you know, and then into the hyper campus. Oh, what happened when that happened? And , you know, it’s all going on in a nanosecond.

[00:33:15] Remember, but boy, there’s a lot going on in that process, you know, you and I do need to make sure that our brains stay as effective and as efficient as we possibly can.

[00:33:27] And because, you know, our brain’s pathways can explode on us at any time. You know, we, you know, and we can, we can sense the dementias. We can sense, , all sorts of processes, which are affecting our memory, you know, our working memory, our long term memory. And, and this is for everyone. and keeping the neural pathways, plastic, you know, that is able to go around blockages, , this is the key, which is in some of the other points.

[00:33:56] Lesson 6: Your Current View of Situation ≠ Best View of Situation

[00:33:56] Duff Watkins: Well, let’s keep talking about rewiring the brain point, number six, you re rewiring the brain by CVS equals B U S.

[00:34:06] Stan Rodski: Well, that wasn’t quite right. So, so my typing, um, um, now , this is not a new invention, but it’s about pathways. Let me put it to you. The current view of the situation is not equal to the best view of the situation.

[00:34:21] And the best view of the situation is at least 10 times better than your current view of the situation. Now, current view of the situation is not equal to the best view of the situation. Let’s just start with that. Let’s just start with that one. This is, this is not new, but in the context of, this neuroscience and where it’s going, it’s just brilliant.

[00:34:41] Because if I say to you black, you say

[00:34:45] Duff Watkins: white,

[00:34:46] Stan Rodski: Yeah. You know, if I say a, a company resembles a tortoise in its performance, what if you think it, in terms of a company that isn’t performing well, and I call it, tortoise like, what would you think the company’s

[00:35:00] Duff Watkins: slowing slow to a down slow to change.

[00:35:03] Stan Rodski: Correct. Correct. Now you just said that because the current view of your situation, which is that situation is equal to the best view, which was that it’s slow, you know, that’s the equals. But what if I said it doesn’t equal that what if I said to you, you know, if you thought about that differently, you might have said stable, dependable giving , always going to, add to your superannuation fund, but that wasn’t your automatic view because the brain operates that way.

[00:35:33] As soon as it’s got a view, you will say what it believes is the best view. because that’s what engaged it, but what if we can actually train our brain to say that the current view is not equal to the best view we find a different pathway. And if I support that with, that better view will always be 10 times better than the current view.

[00:35:53] Then maybe I’ll bang my brain into new pathways. And if I then say to you, the other part of this formula is times 100. If I said to you that if you said that a hundred times a day, the current view of the situation is not equal to the best view of the situation. Then I would say to you, your brain will actually consider the next time I say to you a company that resembles or tortoise performs in what way you’ll go somewhere different.

[00:36:23] Duff Watkins: Let me make sure I understand this. So the point is the current view of the situation is not equal to the best view of the situation. The best view of the situation is at least 10 times better than the current view of the situation. And the more I focus deal or ingest or imbibe the best view of the situation, the greater range of desired outcomes can occur.

[00:36:50] Stan Rodski: Yeah. Because there are other views, you know, our brain is short cutting. Now, let me give you an example about why a hundred times a day. I’m sure you’ve learnt your times table somewhere along in, in this process.

[00:37:03] So, so seven times three equals

[00:37:06] Duff Watkins: 21. Last time I checked

[00:37:08] Stan Rodski: eight times, eight times 8

[00:37:10] Duff Watkins: 64.

[00:37:11] Stan Rodski: Yeah. Why do you know that?

[00:37:13] Duff Watkins: Drill drilled into me as a kid

[00:37:15] Stan Rodski: Correct. You know, our brain is actually still, no matter how many education professors I have this debate with our brain is still structured to learn by rote if you, if you continue to learn, your tables, you know, there’s an argument now,

[00:37:30] well,

[00:37:31] Stan Rodski: you don’t need to know those.

[00:37:32] You’ve got, you know, as long as you’ve got the two numbers and you know what you’re trying to do, but the fact of the matter is, you know, built into your subsets into this world where I started of data. We need to understand distances. We need to understand differences. We need, you know, we need numbers for all of that.

[00:37:47] And that’s why you learn those tables and you learnt them because you did it by rote. I’m telling you the current view of the situation, not equal to the best view of the situation. You say that a hundred times until the next time you and I meet. And I say to you, so Duff, you know, what’s the thinking algorithm.

[00:38:05] And you go to me, current view of the situation, not equal to the best view of the situation. I know, you know, I know that your brain will actually think that way. Isn’t that fascinating that you’ll, you’ll see different possibilities, you’ll create different pathway. and again, that’s a, you know, there’s been a, quite a few people who’ve sort of worked in this space before we had the brain science.

[00:38:28] And I just think that’s a, that’s a great way to, to teach our brain to do things.

[00:38:33] Duff Watkins: Well and, and way to practice it, at least in my experience is, is using different words than you usually, uh, prefer. I, I, I tell people life is a, smorgasborg a behavioral smorgasborg and people UI everyone. We have patterns, we have preference.

[00:38:50] We tend to do the same behaviors over and over again, but there is a smorgasborg available. So, so why not sample one or two and you will get a different reaction. Um, that reminds me of remember Sein. Did you watch Seinfeld? Remember the, the Uber loser, George Castanza, there was an episode where he reversed 180 degrees, everything that he normally did and said, and he had unmitigated success in his life.

[00:39:18] You know, the women liked him, he got hired and he was desired simply by. And then I was, I was talking about Seinfeld to a friend of mine who is a very senior psychiatrist in Australia. And he said, yeah. Um, my brother, who is, is a psychiatrist also does that with his patients. I said, what do you mean? He gets them to try the exact opposite of behaviors that they have been doing.

[00:39:44] And I experimented with this and I gotta tell you, it was a Eureka moment for me. All of a sudden, the world responded differently because I was initiating using different words, using different behaviors. I was acting differently.

[00:39:59] Stan Rodski: Yeah. New pathways. Which is also one of my points.

[00:40:02] Duff Watkins: well, let’s see if we’re getting there,

[00:40:03] Lesson 7: Harness your brain power with infinity, circle, square, triangle exercises

[00:40:03] Duff Watkins: All right. Lesson number seven. Um, this sounds like geometry to me, infinity circle, square and triangle exercises for the brain. Yes.

[00:40:14] Stan Rodski: Yep. So, so now I’m into practical neuroplasticity. Remember that three pounds of spaghetti bolognese well, let’s turn that into three pounds of, Play-Doh. Is Play-Doh, something everyone know sort of molding.

[00:40:29] Duff Watkins: Yeah. I don’t know if they still have it, but I certainly played with it when I was a kid.

[00:40:33] Stan Rodski: Yeah. So, so think of the brain as Play-Doh. You know, so, when we say now, which is the, the whole world in neuroscience now regards the, brain as plastic Play-Doh. So when you, change one thing, something else changes the thing, can’t get bigger. It doesn’t, well, it does shrink, you know, as we get older, but it doesn’t actually add any mass. So for example, whenever we look at people with specific skills, there’s areas of the brain, which are bigger, but they’re to the deficit of other parts of the brain, which are smaller.

[00:41:07] So people who, who have, you know, great insight into mathematics, you know, the Newton, you know, all of these people who, um, have masses, there were unable to communicate, that was because of brain plasticity what we now know is that we can actually, work with brain plasticity.

[00:41:25] We can, we can actually. Help our brain become more active in certain areas, but how, You can sit there right now and start, start thinking up for yourself, how you would like to be more mathematical, you know, really. Okay. Come on. What are you gonna do in that process? And, and this whole idea of plasticity I condensed down to let’s just take the infinity symbol for a moment.

[00:41:52] and, and what I’ve done there is I’ve laid it down for everyone who’s listening or watching. Um, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve. It’s just on its side there, you know, and, and I’m, and, and you can’t, if you’re listening, you can’t see it, but I’m just I’m with my right hand, because I tend to use my right hand. I’m just got my finger going in an infinity symbol.

[00:42:13] Now I know that if I look at the technology, as I’m sort of airing, you know, I’m staring an air infinity symbol as I’m doing that. I know my right hand is actually being driven by my left brain. And my left brain is communicating the movements to my motor cortex, um, across a thing, uh, across the brain, across the corpus callosum , big U shape, piece in the brain, which is its central processor.

[00:42:40] And it’s sending it through the central processor, pretty easy. It’s used to me using my right hand. It sort of gets it, you know, the motor cortex is going and I’m doing my infinity symbol and you can do this with a pen on paper, which is even better, as part of the process. But then what if I change hands?

[00:42:57] So I go change hands. So I do this symbol with my other hand and I’m doing this relatively well. because I’m used to doing this and showing this and practicing it. And if I put it in pen and I put it on paper, yeah, look, it gets, it’s a little wobbly. Um, but I can do it, but I’m now using my right hemisphere.

[00:43:15] But what I’m saying to you, Duff is if you now do this with both hands, two fingers, you, you have a try now. Well, you Duff, I don’t know if I’m

[00:43:24] Duff Watkins: that you,

[00:43:27] Stan Rodski: you don’t get to this. No, that’s beautiful. So, so, so, um, for those of you who, who aren’t watching this Duff has done what every human does first he’s actually mirroring the image, his, his right brain.

[00:43:41] Are you right? Handed Duff? Uh, yes, it’s my dominat. You can use your right hand the most. Yeah. So, yeah. Okay. So, um, so, so your brain, uh, uh, just said to you to the other side, it said just you just mirror, you know, there you go. So you go out and around and you know, you are really using one side of the brain.

[00:44:02] But if I say to you now, Duff start at the top of one, start at the bottom of the other,

[00:44:10] and now go.

[00:44:14] Duff Watkins: Now I gotta think here, Stan, this is what thinking slows me down significantly. You know,

[00:44:21] Stan Rodski: I prefer this way. Yeah, you can get, you can see this much better with pens. So, so mm-hmm if your listeners do this on paper, You know, your, your right will go right? And the left will go everywhere. And then all of a sudden it’ll start to go that way.

[00:44:34] And eventually you can even cross so that your left hand, if you’re right-handed gets much better than the other hand, um, what you are doing is, you know, your brain is now communicating across the corpus callosum it, it’s actually improving the pathways. It’s, it’s making more PA it’s the use it or lose it philosophy that’s going on in neuroscience at the moment.

[00:44:56] You know, you, you’ve got, if you, by, by now activating the two hemispheres and coordinating them together through the corpus callosum , you’re dealing with things like dyslexia, dysphasia, aphasia, all of the communication, Problems that so many children and adults who undiagnosed, or just covered it up, have dealt with, because that central processor, the corpus callosum has for whatever reason, um, become tangled, and these sorts of exercises and I put there, there’s the, there’s the infinity symbol, but you could also do circles at the same time with both hands in different, you can do squares and triangles and you can do try doing a circle and a square at the same time with one hand, do a circle.

[00:45:41] And with the other hand, do a square.

[00:45:43] Duff Watkins: Maybe off camera. I’ll try that. Maybe .

[00:45:46] Stan Rodski: Yeah, no, but I, again, you know, I’m covering a lot of neuroscience here.

[00:45:51] Duff Watkins: Well, just, just, just so people know, correct me if I’m wrong. The corpus callosum is a thick band of nerves between the left and the right hemispheres of the brain.

[00:45:59] And it transmits information between the two hese correct.

[00:46:02] Stan Rodski: It’s like a central processor in the brain. Yeah. And, and that’s where the tangles that that’s where the tangles occur, that, that, that lead to all of those, phasic disorders, um, and, and is probably the primary playground for most cognitive neuroscientists that, that, you know, where they’re trying to unravel all of that.

[00:46:23] Just as an example, when just using the, um, infinity symbols, with children in a school 30 odd years ago there, um, in, in Australia, in the primary school education sphere, we had a couple of grade fives. I was working in a, in a hospital nearby, um, in a rehab hospital, uh, with pediatric head injuries as a result of car accidents.

[00:46:46] And we were trying, then, you know, this was before anyone had thought of plasticity. This was before, you know, when everyone thought once injured, that’s it. You you’re done send in the basket, weavers, just try and get through life as best you can. But don’t think about creating new pathways, creating new ways of doing things was outside of the norm.

[00:47:06] The establishment would’ve said you are absolutely, um, on the wrong path here, but we got grabbed a couple of grade fives and grade sixes from the local school. In those days, they popped them on a bus and sent them over to us. Can you believe it? Um, but that’s how long it, you know, they were quite heavy to do it.

[00:47:22] We had one class come over and we taught them. We showed them where all the head injuries were together, but we put one grade five and one grade six to do this, you know, to, you know, because we, we are also doing it with our head injured children as well. Um, the results with the head injured children were some did.

[00:47:39] Okay. Some didn’t, but they’re very complex injuries. So, but what’s fascinated is what, what happened with the normal groups? So we had a grade five and grade six, two grade fives, two grade six is one grade five, and one grade six actually practiced this with their teacher every day. You know, they, they, they had fun with it, you know, they, so, and they would do the circles and squares and the triangles and, and they did that all for a month and we we’d we’d evaluated.

[00:48:03] Remember data’s important. So I had a baseline on their reading, writing and arithmetic in their both grade fives and grade sixes, but you wouldn’t believe this, but at the end of one month, the, the grade five and the grade six, that we’re practicing that every day, um, actually improve their overall reading, writing and arithmetic results by on average 40%.

[00:48:26] an unbelievable score, but remember we’re talking 30, nearly 40 years ago. and of course we wrote this up and we were all told, you know, the way you went about it. You know, it wasn’t set up properly a, a as a study, but I tell you, um, the results were amazing.

[00:48:40] And, and, and we, and since then, we’ve continued to grow this idea that we can actually. Remember the brain, you can’t just tell it, you you’ve gotta the way into the brain is through your senses. And so using your, the motion sense, you know, with touch, um, actually activating the motor cortex is activating, then all sorts of other pathways through that, uh, central processor had amazing effects.

[00:49:04] Now, you know, this is a way to unblock, you know, create new pathways, create that’s you are actually doing neuroplasticity when you do that exercise. Yeah. You’re creating new pathways.

[00:49:17] Lesson 8: I’ll sleep when I die! No, you’ll die without sleep

[00:49:17] Duff Watkins: All right. Well, let me go on to lesson number eight.

[00:49:21] I’ll sleep when I’m dead.

[00:49:24] Stan Rodski: I think that in the last 10 years, , I’ve come to the opinion that, sleep. And the understanding of sleep and, and being able to improve sleep is one of the greatest neurological, um, finds of, of forever. You know, I, we all know it, but I, I can remember I was working with, I think it was, one of the big airlines and I was with a group of, executives and we were, we were discussing, you know, making big changes and they, were interested in the application of some of these tools that I developed and what have you.

[00:49:58] And, they were talking about the stress of the time. And I said, what, you know, don’t, don’t, you need some sleep. And one of them popped piped up and said to me, well, you know what, , I’ll sleep when I’m dead. And I said, really well, then let me tell you something that I know, and that is that you are going to be dead a lot sooner than you expected.

[00:50:15] Um, But I gotta tell you in this story a month later, one of them in that meeting, um, uh, dropped dead.

[00:50:22] Duff Watkins: There’s a lot of machoness in senior executives about sleep. And Matthew Walker is probably the reigning expert on this. If you have a chance to listen to him on a podcast to read his book, I mean, you want data, he’ll give you some data.

[00:50:37] when people say to me, I’ll sleep when I’m dead and say, yeah. And you’ll, you’ll be sleeping sooner than you think too pal because I, I mean, I thought I knew a bit about sleep because I read immense book years ago. And, but no Matthew Walker put the data and the, the drop off in productivity and longevity is precipitous, not a slow, steady decline.

[00:50:58] It is like jumping off a cliff.

[00:50:59] Stan Rodski: Yes, yes. Yeah, no. And, and part of that is understanding. Sleep is not about, uh, an answer for fatigue. Sleep is part of a 24 hour cycle. In which the brain just switches functions for a certain amount of time, which are necessary for its continuing, um, optimal performance.

[00:51:19] Yeah. So, so, you know, we, we, the study after study now shows that it’s not driven by fatigue. It’s just that it’s a, it’s part of a 24 hour cycle, which, which in fact, um, is important to its, to its continuing, you know, we, we, my favorite analogy for the brain these days is that it’s a battery, you know, it’s a circuit board with a big battery and, and, and it’s whole processing.

[00:51:48] You know, the reasons that, you know, some of the other things that I’ve been discussing here, you know, the shortcuts, it’s habitual behaviors, all of these things. Why would, you know, the brain is not judge. When, when the taps are flowing, when the air conditioning unit is set for high, it’s just operating to get you to high, you know, or, or keep you in normal or whatever it is there.

[00:52:09] And there’s no judgment process. So, so why would it not do anything other than, um, what is optimal for it? And that is exactly right. So, so when we fall asleep and drive off the road into a tree, the reason for that is that it’s run out of juice. You know, it, it, it, it’s at the point where I cannot maintain you and keep you alive unless I shut you down for the next few minutes.

[00:52:38] Mm-hmm, now all day long. It operates on the basis of if I have to stop and think about this, I’m gonna use too much energy. So I’m gonna take the short, you know, that’s why we have short. Why would the brain arrange itself with all these shortcuts? Unless it had some biological reason to do so. Mm-hmm and, and its biological reason of course, is that it wants to conserve our energy, you know, and, and, and energy is, is the key component in, in this whole process.

[00:53:11] It’s, it’s actually managing its energy flows, not over a sleep cycle or a day cycle, but over a whole 24 hour cycle and, and a little plug here. My next book, which is mm-hmm with the publishers at the moment is the neuroscience of excellent sleep. Excellent.

[00:53:30] Lesson 9: Time for a napucino

[00:53:30] Duff Watkins: Excellent. looking forward to them. Well, that takes us, that takes us to point number nine, Stan, time for a napucino .

[00:53:36] And can I get that at Starbucks?

[00:53:39] Stan Rodski: well, well again, I, I I’ll go back to, uh, have you heard of this before?

[00:53:44] Duff Watkins: No, no, I, I, I don’t know where you’re going with this.

[00:53:47] Stan Rodski: Yeah. So, this is about, coffee and sleep and, one of the little tricks that many, in competitive neurological types, uh, environments like the gamers. Let me explain , when you have a cup of coffee, a Chino, you’re not immediately stimulated, it takes 20 minutes for it to hit you, you know, in a physiological sense in, in that you get the, the, the bang and coffee works like that. It doesn’t graduate itself into your system. It bangs into your system. If I’ve got you on an EEG, a 20 minute mark, I’ll watch your heart, you know, up, up, she up, she goes now, now let’s combine that with nap theory. Now by that. I mean, napping and sleeping theory. Imagine what would happen if, you drank a cup of coffee and you then had set your, your phone alarm for 20 minutes and you closed your eyes and napped so that when the alarm woke you up in 20 minutes, the coffee also hits you.

[00:54:52] You are wired, wired, you are wired. You are in super Sonic speed for the next 10 to 15 minutes. Now you can imagine the, and that’s what’s called a napucino. And of course that was abused by the gamers and, and their, because they would just start trying to work out ways to, to, to get that even better.

[00:55:18] And I, and I I’ve actually moved into the world of a decaf napucino I’ve actually, you’ll find this in the book. Because napping is brilliant. If you need to nap, napping is not brilliant. If you don’t need to nap,

[00:55:35] that’s the key here. Don’t people forcing themselves to nap. It’s like their five year olds on the nap mat in their kindergartens, you know, some go off and, and others just find it impossible. And that’s the same with us adult humans.

[00:55:51] Lesson 10: On Mars a day is 24.6 hours but how will your brain cope?

[00:55:51] Duff Watkins: lesson number 10 on Mars a day is 24.6 hours long, but how would our brain cope with it?

[00:55:59] Stan Rodski: Yeah, so 24.6 hours. So just 23 minutes, I think, longer than, than, our day. And believe it or not. We don’t know how the brain will cope with that, because we have a brain that operates on a 24 hour cycle. There’s a cuz there’s 24 hours in our day.

[00:56:18] There’s no, you can have more energy, but you can’t have more hours. And I just wanted to leave it with the, the concept of how will we deal with being in an environment, which, which has a new definition on that. Will it take us millions of years to adapt to that?

[00:56:34] And how can we define some science to help us adapt to that? Because what’s happening is that’s accumulating, you know, it’s, it’s outta sync with us that believe it, that small amount of time. Is is really a challenge. So I’m leaving my last wisdom or insight as the challenge here related to, to our whole physiological system.

[00:56:57] How will we, if we are living there, deal with that.

[00:57:01] Duff Watkins: Hmm. Well, we won’t find out, but somebody else will

[00:57:06] Stan Rodski: indeed. Yeah, no, the, I don’t think the Rover, uh, robots care.

[00:57:10] Duff Watkins: Well, let me, let me ask you, uh, one last question and we’ve been talking a lot about things that, that you’ve learned over your 40 years in science and 50 years, um, in life.

[00:57:21] What have you unlearned lately? And by that, I mean, something you absolutely positively knew to be true then, but now no is not the case.

[00:57:32] Stan Rodski: Yeah. Look, I, I it’s come. It’s gone for me a few times here and, and for me, it’s two brain theory. Um, two bra and, and, and I just find this so amazing, you know, years ago, I don’t know if you saw it all or you were part of it as part of your learning and your executive.

[00:57:53] A lot of people went absolutely ballistic about two brain theory. You know, the left brain does this and the, you remember that? And we went into the schools, you know, oh, you know, if you are thinking with your left brain, your you’re being logical and, and your right brain you’re being creative and all the rest of it.

[00:58:12] And the reason for that in those days was that the limited amount of ability to see in there and understand it, it made some sense because we did, you know, when, when in the early, um, um, scans, you know, MRIs not be before the, the pet scans and all the, all the other amazing stuff that’s around now, but we could see that most of the activity happened on that side and, and.

[00:58:39] Over the years, that’s sort of just evolved out. You know, we just sort of, there have been other things in the recent times, and this is where the big discoveries are while we know certain functions do tend to have a region that you could define as being on the left side or the right side. But the new scanners now show us that not only does that region start to glow under whatever particular instrument, but about 20 other regions in the brain also light up.

[00:59:16] maybe not as big, maybe not as dense or whatever it might be, but 20 other regions all over the brain light up and the, where the neuroscience is now is why do they light up? What, what on earth is going on in this brain? Where that, even though, you know, that’s the core area here that I’m pointing at on my left side here.

[00:59:44] And, and I know where that fits into all the other bits, but why is it lit, lit up, you know, over on the right side, down the back, just behind this or that. Um, why is that? And, and that’s where all of the science is right now. You know, because we know brainwaves are the super highway. So when we, when we get an alpha wave, which is our pre sleep wave, our relaxations wave, we know that that’s occurring on one particular side of the brain, but it’s also occurring in all these other spots around the brain that we’ve found.

[01:00:20] All of those spots are connected by these supers for the neurons that are the way it. We couldn’t work out for years. How on earth could they all the reason we didn’t think that was going on is because how could they communicate with each other? How would the neurons find a way? And of course, what we’ve discovered is that they, the brainwaves, which are all different, you know, you get different brainwaves in different parts, they’ve become the super highway.

[01:00:46] So they become the connected, all the parts of the brain that want to talk to each other, jump onto the alpha wave, you know, and the alpha wave then connects them all up. and that to me was the final demise of two brain theory. and hence the unlearning, you know, say goodbye. I I’d held it there for, you know, even though it had sort of spectacularly burnt in my mind a long time ago, but it was, it, it, it sort of always, you know, it was part that now it is well and truly in the graveyard.

[01:01:18] Duff Watkins: Well, now we know better. Thanks to guys like you. And we will finish here on that note listeners, you’ve been listening to the international podcast and lessons that took me 50 years to learn. This episode is produced by Robert Hossary and is sponsored by the professional development forum PDF.

[01:01:35] They provide webinars, social media discussions, podcast, parties, anything you want, everything you need. Professional Development Forum. You can find them online. Professional development, forum.org listener. You’ve heard from us. We’d like to hear from you. You can email us. We’d like to hear what sort of wisdom would you like to learn about who would you like us to talk to please contact us?

[01:01:55] The email address is podcast 10 lessons learned.com that’s podcast@10lessonslearned.com. In fact, that’s our website, 10 lessons learned.com. Until then until the next episode. Thank you for listening. And remember, you’ve been listening to the only podcast on the internet. That’s making the world wiser lesson by lesson, thanks for joining us.

 This episode is produced by Robert Hossary. Sponsored as always by Professional Development Forum, which office insights, community or discussions, podcasts, parties, anything you want here, but they’re unique and it’s all free online. You can find the www.professionaldevelopmentforum.org you’ve heard from us we’d like to hear from you. Email us it’s podcast@10lessonslearned.com. Remember, this is the podcast the only podcast. That’s makes the world wiser lesson by lesson.