Matt Formston – Why Not?

Rob: Imagine surfing a 50-foot wave at Nazaré. Imagine setting a cycling world record at the UCI World Championship in Mexico. Imagine winning four world titles as a surfer. Imagine exceeding enterprise sales targets by 140% at one of Australia’s at one of Australia’s largest corporates.
Imagine being the subject of a Netflix documentary. Imagine publishing a book.
Imagine chairing boards, building programs for blind children, and serving as a public ambassador for multiple charities and NGOs. Hmm. Imagine being recognized by the Crown as a member of the Order of Australia for all of that work.
I’d [00:01:00] like you to imagine any one of these things. Now imagine doing all of those things blind.
Our guest today, Matt Formston, did all of them in parallel for 15 years, blind.
At five years old, Matt was told that he would go blind. The professor who delivered the diagnosis told his parents the standard 1983 prognosis for macular dystrophy.
He would never hold a real job. He would never have many friends. He would never play sport. He would never live independently. Matt’s mom and dad listened very, very carefully and then asked a different question: “Why can’t he?
Why not?”
That question became the operating system Matt has run on for over 40 [00:02:00] years.
The method became a framework. The framework became a book, “Why Not?” Welcome, Matt. Welcome to 10 Lessons Learned
Matt Formston: Rob, what an intro, mate. I might have to take you around with me to keynotes. That was, that was pretty special.
Thanks for having me
Rob: me … not at all.
I appreciate you making time to talk to us. I was really inspired by the lessons you sent me. So, before we get started, do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself?
Matt Formston: Oh, well, I think you’ve already done it. Um, I mean, they’re all the achievements. I think the, the one thing that I will say that I, I obviously my sporting achievements and the d- Netflix documentary and all those things generally take precedence as the sort of headline story. But in reality, my blindness has never been my biggest challenge.
my- uh, I, um, sport has been, was sort of my main thing that I was, my identity was linked to growing up. School was horrible. I got bullied. Kids would say, “How many fingers am I holding up?”
They would delete my work on my [00:03:00] laptop. Uh, they would do, you know, it was just, was, not wasn’t, wasn’t kind place. But in the, on the sporting field, I just got measured on my contribution.
So, the boys would say, “If you missed a tackle, you’re soft,” or you’re lazy,” or just all the things they would say to everyone else. Whereas at school I would get called blind boy and all the different things, because I went through mainstream schooling. So, I lost sport. Uh, it’s a long story, but essentially, I had glandular fever, so I got sick and couldn’t play for a year.
one of my friends at, around the same time, literally within a 12-month period, um, took his life and my life spiralled into a place where I, I, lost all my standards and, and I lost my identity and I, I created a new identity around other people’s, approval and other pr- other people’s, nod- approval. And that was that was a really dangerous place to be. So, I ended up in pub fights and, you know, just doing all, there just wasn’t a good place. And it took me about 10 years to get out of that.
Um, and then rebuilding myself to become the person that created all those achieve- that list of achievements that you r- you reeled off. That, that- has been my greatest achievement is, is re- [00:04:00] rebuilding myself.
And I suppose that’s the, they’re the frameworks in the book, of how I did that and how I’ve gone on to win a world title, break a world record, or win a business award every year since, since I did that
Rob: Incredibly inspirational and, and the book is up on the screen so people can see, uh, the title of your book and, you know, there’ll be a link of- to where you can go get that book. But, you know, to, to have achieved everything you’ve achieved after everything you’ve gone through and then be recognized with an Order of Australia.
I mean, congratulations, Matt. This is why, um, I’m honoured to have you on 10Lessons.
What we try and do is share the things that lift us up with all of our audience so that they can learn from our mistakes. So, I’m really looking forward to, to this. Well, with that said, let’s get started.

Lesson 1: Why Not?

Rob: So, your first lesson, obviously straight from your book, why not? [00:05:00]
So, tell me about why not?
Matt Formston: So, I grew up in a house where, and my parents need l- you know, a significant amount of the, the credit for, for all the things that I’ve I grew up in a house where we weren’t allowed to, to say the word can’t.
Rob: Ooh.
Matt Formston: And a lot of people will, uh, you know, uh, will sort of be go, “Yep, my dad said that too,” or “My mom said that. We weren’t allowed to say can’t either.”
I think the thing that was different in my house is when s- when- if we ever said the word, like, I can’t do my homework,” or “I can’t hit a nail with a, with a hammer because I’m blind,” my dad would say, “Why not?” And then a, a follow with another why not. He was a s- sales and marketing director in the alcohol industry.
He ran sales teams. He, He, was always dealing with objections from either his team or from customers.
So, when his little eight-year-old son said, “I can’t do my homework,” uh, I was never going to win that conversation. And what happens when you keep asking “why not?” is you start then getting into the granular detail of your can’t, problem, of your challenge, of your whatever it is that’s in front of you. And when you get into the, the minutiae, when you get into [00:06:00] the detail of your problem, you start finding the solution
Rob: That’s so true. it doesn’t surprise me that it came from a sales professional, because that’s what we’re taught. We’re taught to dig through. But when you apply… I never did, but I would love to have gone back and applied that same learning to, to my children. Why not?
Why can’t you do this? And it doesn’t just apply to kids. Ask yourself, people, why not? Why
Matt Formston: I work with clients all over the world if you, if you think of a big logo, I’ve probably worked with them, and they always said, “How do we overcome adversity?
Like, we’re challenged, we’re going through a ch- we’re going through a change at the moment doing all this.”
And, and I think why not is the easiest way that I can say how you build resilience. As soon as you keep putting it back on people to say, “
Why, why not? Why not, it, you know, it doesn’t matter what it is. I mean, I’m sure at SpaceX there’s problems around, you know, weight, fuel economy. There’s all sorts of things they’re dealing with and if… but if they keep chucking why not in front of things, they’ll find ways to [00:07:00] break all those things that no one’s ever done
Rob: Absolutely. And don’t, use why not as a shield. Use it inquisitively.
Like,
Matt Formston: It’s a tool.
Rob: It’s a tool. There, there are too few tools that we can use that are given to us, and the fact that you got this at such a young age… And I love in the, in your intro, um, the fact that y- this is your operating system.
I think what a, what a wonderful way to, to visualize it, because it is, and it should be. I, I really think, Matt, that that is, a lesson for everybody. And I’ve, I’ve said this many, many times with a lot of my guests, people, you’re watching, you’re listening, rewind this bit. Listen to Matt again, because you need to hear this.
You need to internalize [00:08:00] it. Understand what why not means. It’s really, really a powerful lesson.
Well, that’s great, Matt. let’s move on, because, uh, your

Lesson 2: Two Gears, One Engine

Rob: lesson number two baffled me a little bit, so I’m hoping you can explain it to me.
Two gears, one engine so
Matt Formston: I’m going to go back against my parents. I grew up in a house with a mother who was a hairdresser.
She was a hairdresser. She’s still the hardest working, at 78 years old, still the hardest-working person I know. Me and my and my sister used to have to run walk to keep up with her. She’s now got six grandchildren; they all have to run walk to keep up with her. She moves so fast. My father, on the other hand, is a guy that measures five times and cuts once.
He was all about strategy. I learned from both of them that you can, you can, they’re both, they’re both gears that you can be in, but if you get stuck in either one of those gears, mom will always act first and maybe make mistakes because she’s always in go mode, and dad will maybe take too long to do things because he’s always in strategy mode. [00:09:00]
And so, I learned from them that there’s two modes to be in. You got strategy mode and execution mode. And in business, I think that’s become a superpower of mine, to be conscious of what mode I’m in.
Because I think we all, we were all familiar with, you know, creating strategy and then executing, but then we can float between those two gears and not be conscious of when we’re in each gear.
So, this lesson is about being conscious of which gear you’re in, and then not getting stuck in one gear or the other
Rob: You know how long it takes people to learn that? I mean, it, it… I’m at the, on the twilight side of my, of my career, and I can say to you hand on heart that I only learned that lesson maybe five years ago. so, it, it’s an important direction to point yourself in, to understand, and it comes back to self-awareness, understanding who you are and how you operate.
Yes, there are two modes. [00:10:00] I, for a long time, was just in strategy mode. Um, then I switched, and I just went straight into, execution mode.
But the fact that you don’t, when you’re in execution mode, you don’t stop and think, or you’re in a rush to execute as opposed to being a little more patient.
Yes, I’m going to get it done, but I will take my time. And it’s, you’ve seen this in startups, you’ve seen this everywhere. People who rush to get a result don’t get the result that they could have gotten had they slowed down a little bit.
Matt Formston: And then other founders that spend too much time building a, a robust plan, and they never execute, they never get anywhere because they’re too busy planning
Rob: Exactly. very important lesson, and I think it’s one again that you’ve got to think about, you’ve got to appreciate.

Lesson 3: Standards Without Consequences Are Just Wishes

Rob: let’s [00:11:00] go to lesson number three.
standards without consequences are just wishes. My God, that is so, so true. So true. So true
Matt Formston: Look, I, I think everyone’s familiar with, you know, any business you work in, any reception you walk into, everyone’s got their three values that they have on the wall, or have in their, on their f- homepage of their website, and they tell their team.
But then if you walk around and talk to people in the business and you say, “Okay, well, if that’s one of your values,” and I’m going to call it a standard, what happens if you don’t do that?
So, if there’s no consequence to not adhering to something, there’s not really a standard. And I would say it’s not a value; it’s just a wish.
Um, and it, and this is the foundation. I’ve got a trust formula that I’ve built, we’ll get to trust at the end, because that’s, that’s think the most valuable lesson anyone can learn.
But the standards is the, is the baseline, it’s the, it’s the beginning part of my formula, and you need to understand what those standards are.
You need to agree with u- with your team what they are. And look, a simple one’s [00:12:00] like at the teams meeting, like if people start complaining, “Oh, Tim’s always late to a, too late to the teams meeting.
Well, what did we agree late was? Is three minutes late, late? Two minutes late late? Like, if we don’t have an agreed as a team what late is, then it’s difficult to, uh, to, to call someone out for it. I remember when I first started riding for Australia, uh, our team d- our team director, um, the high performance director for Cycling Australia, Peter Day, uh, he had a standard that was 10 minutes early for a team meeting was on time.
And, and he, c- he was very clear about that, so I think clarity’s really important with standards.
And if you were nine minutes early for the meeting, you would absolutely get grilled in front of the whole team, and if you were on time, you, the door would be closing, you weren’t included in the meeting.
And so, everyone knew that was the standard, and everyone adhered it.
But I think you need to be clear on what it is, the, what that standard is, and then there needs to be a consequence. And if you don’t have… If you’re not clear on the standard and if you don’t have a consequence, then it’s not a standard, and therefore it’s not a value that you really care about
Rob: I see that, and I just wish more, more people understood what [00:13:00] you just said, more business leaders. Because you’re right. you go to any website, you go to anybody’s business, and you will see their mission statement, their, you know, their values.
We have integrity. We… Well, do they? You know, like, do they? And this comes back again personally. Do you actually uphold your standards?
one of our other hosts, uh, Siebe, Siebe, is always telling the story of when he was working South America, uh, it was a bank that he was working for, the current manager treated the, the local staff very badly, and he stood up for them, and he got fired for it. but it was his values that he stood up for. So, this is not only for your business, but it’s for yourself
Matt Formston: we’ll, we’ll get into trust, but I, I think that trust starts with yourself. Unless you have self- deep [00:14:00] self-trust, I’ve got five pillars of trust in my, in my formula. But if you don’t have self-trust, then you can’t then build team trust, stakeholder trust, and eventually leadership trust and the, and the pinnacle that we’re all aiming for, which is customer trust
Rob: Well, would you a- also agree that that same framework works for respect, works for love- works for any of the, the big ones? If you do not respect yourself, if you do not love yourself, If you’re not honest with yourself, then how do you expect that emotion, that value to be extended outwards if you’re not doing it internally?
Matt Formston: I, I do completely agree. But when we say self, that then comes back to standards.
Because it’s like what, what am I being honest about? What am I holding myself accountable to? And it all comes back to standards, and understanding what your standards are, and what your… To your friend’s, your co-founder’s, example, a standard is something that you hold regardless.
Doesn’t matter if there’s an audience, if you’re by yourself, [00:15:00] if you’re in front of the world, it’s something that you, you’ve agreed that you’re not going to budge on, and it’s something that you, that, it’s non-negotiable
Rob: Well, isn’t the old saying character is how you present yourself when no one’s looking?
Matt Formston: Yeah.
Rob: I love this lesson, and I, I try to live it every day. And a- again, people, it, it’s not that it happened overnight. It took me years to learn how to do this, and I wish I was y- as young as Matt when I, when I started doing it, but I, wasn’t.

Lesson 4: The Bullshit Audit

Rob: That’s fantastic, Matt. Let’s go, to lesson number four, which is, is probably my favourite, but I really want to hear how you, you execute this. So, lesson number four, the bullshit audit
Matt Formston: Look, I, this came to me, uh… A lot of these all turned up. So, these are all basically in the book, in Not Why Not. And why not’s obviously the fuel, that’s the framework, that’s the thing [00:16:00] that, that’s the engine that drives everything.
But there’s eight hard standards in the book. So, we’re going, but actually, as we’re listing through these lessons, they’re the actual standards that are in the book.
Um, and a lot of them turned up in my life after that 10-year period. and I had been making excuses for everything you know- if I didn’t hit, if I didn’t hit my… You know, I was a salesperson.
I spent most of my career in sales. Didn’t hit my number, or I didn’t hit the… I might hit my number, I might hit 100%, but I haven’t hit a h- if I’d, you know, I had a goal at the beginning of the month of 120%, but I didn’t get there, and then I’d make excuses of why.
And then I’d had failed relationships, and I would always be like, “well, it’s their fault. It’s someone else’s fault.” You know, “They didn’t do this.” And y- you always, it’s always these excuses. And as a person with a disability, as a blind person,
uh, it’s very hard. You think, you, you probably think about all the things that are hard because, of, you know, accessibility.
Systems don’t work. You can’t see, it’s harder to re- all these things are hard, right?
What’s actually the hardest thing is the whole world makes excuses for Because they go, “Oh, you’re blind. You don’t need to do that, Matt. Don’t make it so hard on yourself.” Or “Your system’s wrong. It’s okay that you didn’t do that.” So [00:17:00] they’re basically always, you know, opting you out of things.
They’re actually lowering the standard for you at the im- instead of increasing the standard. And so, I, I noticed that this was happening in my life, and I basically, I call it the bullshit audit.
It’s 2:00 AM. The way I articulate it in the book is, the bullshit audit is basically, it’s like your Instagram reel. So instead of the Instagram reel that’s been edited nicely, and you’ve cut parts out, and you’ve added a bit of fast-forward, a bit of slow-mo.
You’ve added a nice little filter over it. The bullshit audit is you have to watch back your life in normal time. You have to hear, hear the full audio, and you l- and there’s no f- there’s no fast-forward, there’s no slow-mo. It’s just looking at the real thing, and then, and then making a judgment whether you, you know, if that’s the person that you’re proud of.
And I think when you do it like that, and you look at it in the reality of it without any rose-tinted glasses on, you can really make a judgment on whether you’re, you’re proud of who you are
Rob: Yeah. Yeah, and it’s not easy and it’s not- pleasant
Matt Formston: It’s probably the hardest work you can do. But if you do it properly, it’s the most valuable thing can [00:18:00] do
Rob: absolutely. it’s incredibly hard. It’s incredibly confronting.
Matt Formston: but I will say like o- any other skill, the more you do it, the easier it
Rob: Yes. absolutely. It, it is, you, the word you used is brilliant. It is a skill.
like everything in life, if you keep practicing, keep training, you can do these It’s just becoming aware that you have to do this, becoming aware that this exists, becoming aware that there are times in your life you’re an asshole.
You know?
And a lot of people refuse to admit things like this. but once you do, once you run this bullshit audit and look at your life, I agree with you, Matt, I think it will help you achieve more and know yourself better, and then tap into the other lessons that, that we spoke about. So-
Matt Formston: I think it’s the baseline lesson, right?
Because [00:19:00] if you don’t do this one- just going to keep- y- you can keep putting the slow-mo and the fast-forward and the lovely filter on, the rest of it doesn’t matter because you’re not actually… you know, we all need data. If we talk, if we’re, we’re talking about a business podcast here, we all use data to make decisions, right?
And if your data’s not, not- not coming through clean, if it’s been altered, then you’re not actually being able to make those other ch- changes, because you’re, you’re not using a baseline to make the changes
Rob: Exactly. Exactly. You’ll, you’ll go off on a tangent and it will not give you the result that you’re expecting. I think this is great. All of these, by the way, this is to our audience, all of these are not easy, but they’re worth it. They’re absolutely worth it. Which leads us into

Lesson 5: The Hard Way Is The Easy Way

Rob: lesson number five, the hard way is the easy way.
Tell me about that
Matt Formston: I don’t want to be generationalist or whatever the word is, but I think a lot of the, the, the young people that I work with, they just don’t want to, [00:20:00] they don’t want to work hard, and therefore they’re not building capacity. And I think, you know, I worked really, really hard in periods of my life, and now I find it easy.
So, you know, I think about my current life. I sit on boards, I’m a professional athlete, I’m a dad, I’m a husband. I do all these different things. There’s no way that I could have, uh, 20 years ago, if you said I was going to do all those things, there’s just no way. My brain would’ve just completely melted and fallen out of my ear.
But because I worked hard in different areas, as you build capacity in different areas, they get easier. Because you work hard now, …and then that skill, you build that muscle, you build that skill, then that becomes easy, then you build more skill. So, the harder you work, the easier things get.
It’s counterintuitive, but that’s, that’s the reality.
Rob: Well, it, there’s a psychological term this, which is unconscious competence.
You go through stages of competences, or competencies. So, and, and the audience has heard me say this before, but it’s worth repeating. You start with [00:21:00] unconscious incompetence.
You don’t know what you don’t know.
Then you got
Conscious incompetence. You know what you don’t know.
And then you have conscious competence. You know what you know.
And then at the end of it, it’s unconscious competence. You don’t know what you know. And you keep going back and forth between unconscious, competence and conscious incompetence.
So, you know what you don’t know, then you don’t know what you know, because you keep learning, you keep cycling through that. But you’ve got to take that first step.
And, you know, Matt is absolutely right. If you take the easy road, you’re never going to learn anything.
know? It, you won’t build capacity and it’s that capacity that keeps you going. I mean, f- from a, an inspirational point of view, and not because you, you have a disability, not because you’re blind, but the mere fact [00:22:00] that, uh, you have started this journey, and you’ve gotten to where you’ve gotten with all of these accomplishments just proves that it does work
So, people, what can I say? You know, the hard way is the way is the easy way. Get off your ass, get off your bums, and get out there and do the work.
Matt Formston: and one of the phrases in the book, uh, I, I say, uh- the harder you work now, the, the easier your futures, your future self will be.
Uh, and I truly believe that because the jobs that I did 15 years ago, for me to do now I could, you know, I could almost do asleep.
But back then it was very very stressful. Now I do all the things I do, and it’s actually not that stressful because I’ve built all the capacities I need to do them.
Rob: all right, let’s, let’s move to

Lesson 6: The Future Is Already Real

Rob: lesson number six. I’m a little confused, matt. So, lesson number six, the future is already [00:23:00] real.
what do you mean by the future is already real?
Matt Formston: So, we actually changed the name of this with, my editor.
We changed the name of this standard about five times. but essentially, it’s owning your future self, so believing that you are what you’re not.
So, I set a world record in cycling. I worked with a lady called Louise Laffey, and, um, uh, Lou’s amazing, and she basically got me to say, we- I visualize visual- I vi- I’m big on visualization. I’ve used it a lot through business, sport, you know, all parts of my life.
And so, I visualized winning this w- this race, standing on the podium with a gold medal around my neck. I wasn’t a world champion at the time. I’m leading into the 2014, World Championships in Aguascalientes, Mexico.
Lou got me to say, as I’m, as I’m doing my visualizations of feeling the n- feeling the weight of the medal around me, my neck, and hearing the Australian anthem and living in that future that wasn’t real, like, it wasn’t a reality.
And she got me to say, “I am a world champion.” And I said, “Lou, I’m not a world champion. I’m not, I’m not going to [00:24:00] do that. I’m an Ausie bloke. We don’t talk it up, you know. I- not, that’s not who I am.”
And she said, “It is who you are. Own it, and then you’ll, and then you’ll walk into it.”
So, I lived and breathed, and I was a world champion, not walking around saying that to, you know, to everybody out loud, but in private, as I’m doing the work. I, I lived and breathed that, and I felt that every day, and I felt the winning of the… going through the race, the pain that would, my legs would feel in the race and all.
I lived through and breathed through all the- all the elements of the task …and the accomplishment.
And lo and behold, I became a world champion, and I stood there, and I actually got to have that m- gold medal around my neck, and I’ve done that ever since. With Naz- surfing Nazaré, big tasks that I take on that people say aren’t possible, I go through them in my mind, and I make the future real and then it just turns up for me.
Rob: That’s, amazing because we’ve all heard of visualization. you’re talking to an old man, so I was around for all the motivational speakers. And visualize, visualize. That’s great, [00:25:00] fantastic, but they never gave us an anecdote like this.
They never gave us, uh, proof of how it worked, and you just did.
Matt Formston: And I think the visualization part; a lot of people do the visualizing so they’re seeing a s- an image.
But it’s about all the sense, all- using all the senses in your visualization. Feeling whatever it is on your skin, feeling the temperature, feeling your heart rate increase, feeling the emotions.
The feelings are actually more powerful than the vision. And then the auditory part as well, what are you hearing? all, all the things that come with that, the whole sensory experience,
That, that immersion in that whole sensory experience is the most powerful way to what you want to have in your future
Rob: Absolutely brilliant. I’ve not done it. I’ll be very transparent here with you, Matt. I, I’ve not visualized, uh, because I’ve never had anything that I’ve wanted that but I, I can see it, how it would work,
Matt Formston: And, Robert, it doesn’t need to [00:26:00] be sport either. And sorry to cut you off, but you might not have a dream, but it’s actually a good way of solving business problems. because by visualizing and feeling that future part, like you s- let’s think about finishing a, a project or winning a large deal that’s going to take you 18 months to close.
If you feel, like at the end of it, you’ll actually start feeling… You’ll stop belie- stop believing it because there’ll be a problem that you need to solve. So, if you s- you’ll start solving those problems for the future, and that will give you things to do in your real world life to be able to make sure that that, that, visualization comes true
Rob: Well, now that you say that, then I, I suppose I have been using this, because I’ve been involved in a lot of, um, organizational change in my career. And you can’t go through organizational change without seeing where the organization’s going to end up, without looking at, into the future and, and seeing what needs to be done to be there, and what problems you’ll [00:27:00] have on the way and then mitigating those issues.
So yeah, I suppose I have done it. And it, in those cases, it does work. From a strategic
point of view,
it absolutely works.
But you’ve given us a real taste of how it works, and you’ve shown me that I’ve been doing it, but I’ve never realized it, in that manner.

Lesson 7: Empathy Is A Superpower

Rob: All right, lesson number seven. Now, we’ve had a, this lesson before, but I’m really interested in your take on it. Empathy is a superpower. Take it away, Matt.
Matt Formston: Uh, and I think we’ll get into this later on, but as a leader, I used to think because I did it this way, that was the best way to do it, therefore you should do it this way.
I don’t think any leader hasn’t gone through an iteration of that at some point.
and if you have, then you’re a lot more, you know, worldly person than I was when I was younger.
But, um, I, I, realized, you know, that I, I got… As I
I got into more and more roles and more senior [00:28:00] roles that understanding people, started understanding, you know, just in, in sales leadership, if you can understand what someone’s doing, you know, wanting to hit their number for, that’s a powerful tool.
Because they might l- you know, they might want the next job, or they want- want to buy a n- a Ferrari, or they want to feed their put their kids through a private school. Understanding that part obviously is a good way to motivate them and to help them stay on track.
These are all pretty transactional things but going deeper than that and actually understanding who people are, what makes them tick, what are their, what are their fears, where have they come from.
I remember I went on a walk once with someone that I’d worked with for, you know, 15 years, and we started talking about, our, grandparents and the heritage of our families.
And when you know people really deeply and who they are and how they tick, you can work better together, and as a leader, it’s a superpower.
Um, so I- I’ve now taken that, because I’ve realized how powerful it is, I, I’ve made that a conscious part of what I do. Um, and I spend time. like I consciously make time to be able to speak [00:29:00] to the people that I work with and really find out what makes them tick and like, and not let them, n- not, let the conversation go back into tactical talking about work mode.
Like, really just spending time on, on, on people, um, because I think when you, if you want to lead teams and drive high-performance teams, and I’m talking about this in business and sport, and, you know, I do some of the most dangerous things that human beings can do.
I need to lead teams where if, if, someone makes a mistake, someone dies.
So, it’s, it’s, it’s important work and being a leader in those environments means that everybody comes home alive, which pretty important thing. Um, so, you know, that’s probably my biggest skill that I use as a leader now.
Rob: Look, empathy is incredibly important. The way you, you describe, the way you put it, is it is a superpower. again, I, I refer back to, uh, Siebe, who has, one of his lessons was, “Don’t judge until you understand.” and that is so important, and what you’re saying is that. [00:30:00] Uh- obviously, still going back to everything that you said, it’s a skill.
You need to practice it. Yes, you can feel empathetic for s- about a situation but if you don’t understand what’s driving the person, then your empathy is empty. Uh, you’re, you’re just doing what you think society expects you to do.
I think what you’re talking about, Matt, is true empathy … something that comes from within.
Matt Formston: Yeah. Not, it’s not… And I would say that it’s empathy for the team greater than the person. So, I think there’s a flawed concept I think that people take out of this that it’s about, empathy’s about being gentle and about like lowering standards. It’s not that at all.
It’s understanding people so that you can help them be their best version of themselves. Um, but if they’re not able to turn up a- and if they’re… Or maybe they don’t have the same standards, or they don’t have the same values as the rest of the team. The team always comes [00:31:00] first, and then you help that person maybe find somewhere else to go that y- you, know…
It’s not about using, you know, lowering standards and making it easy for the person. It’s just about understanding who they are and so that they, you can, you can as a team come together and, um, and find your, your shared moments.
Rob: Yeah, absolutely. if you go a little deeper, I- in my mind at least, it’s about being human.
You- you’ve got another human being there. Now, let’s say they screw up.
okay, they’ve had a… They’ve gone through a bad breakup or whatever, and they’ve screwed up a really important project. I can feel for them as a human being, but you screwed up a really important project, and I n- I as your leader need to make you aware of that.
and how can I assist you with your mental health after- I’ve explained how you’ve [00:32:00] screwed this up?
It doesn’t mean that, you know, “Oh, you screwed it up. You’re a failure.” It’s just you need to understand how to talk to your team, how to tell them when they screw up, and how to help them, as Matt said. It’s very important. they are… T- The word team is there because you work together, and without each other it doesn’t work.
I, I think, it’s very powerful.

Matt Formston: it’s a topic that I could talk about for hours.
It’s, it’s so- nuanced and true empathy’s about really just asking questions.
That’s what it’s about. It’s about having r- uh, ha- uh, you know, curiosity, um, and being inquisitive. Right? There’s one of the… like, my children say… There’s, there’s five values that my children say before they go to sleep each night, and in- be- inquisitive is one of them.
And I think true empathy comes from a place of being inquisitive. And- I think if you’re coming at, at any problem, whether someone’s failed at, at, at a task or whatever, if you’re, to your point around you don’t, you don’t [00:33:00] need to understand their background, why they did a certain thing.
And, And, if you’re, if you come at the situation from an inquisitive perspective rather than a judgment perspective, um, you will always get the best outcome
Rob: Agreed.
Uh, and like all your lessons, I’d like to just point out that everything that Matt has been talking about has got to be rooted in genuineness. You have to be genuine. It has to come from within, not performative.
All right, let’s go

Lesson 8: Own Every Hat

Rob: to lesson number eight, it piqued my interest. Lesson number eight: own every hat.
Matt Formston: This one’s very complex, I’ll try and get through it as quick as I can, but essentially, I call them my hats.
So, I, uh, I’m… As I’ve said before, I’m a dad, I’m a husband, I’m a- I sit on boards, I’m an athlete. You know, I do different things. I n- so [00:34:00] there’s, there’s, there’s, different ways to look at this, but there’s, first of all, there’s the time management component of it. So, when I’m wearing each hat, I give that hat 100% of my focus.
So, if I’m being a dad, I’m 100% focused on that. I’m not looking at my phone; I’m not doing other things.
If I’m in a meeting, I’m not looking at my phone. I’m not thinking about being a parent.
When I’m being an athlete and I’m training, I’m trying not to think about, you know, work things and let them come into my mind.
I just focus on being an athlete. And by just being focused on each one of my hats, I’m executing well in that arena. But also, something that I’ve worked out through writing the book we, there’s this forward concept that we talk about, uh, which is about being one true self, about being a consistent version of, of ourself
I, I believe that’s a very flawed concept. Because if I turn up as, as the best version of me being a mate to my mates in the pub, into the boardroom, that’s probably not going to be the best version of me. And me in the surf with my mates is a different version to me with my kids and that’s okay. M- what, what the, what the consistent thing is, [00:35:00] is my standards and my morals and my values, they don’t change.
But how I turn up, how I present with m- in my different hats is a different version of me. And, and by being conscious of those versions of me, I can then actually grow that as a skill and be better at that version of me as, as I turn up.
So, in all the different businesses I work in, they might have different values as well as a business. So, I, I know that those values are… They’ll align to my values as a person, but I know how I turn up there. So, there’s the, there’s the time element of it, there’s the turning up and h- how you are in, within that hat. Um, and then there’s… I could mean, I could… there’s, There’s, so many different ways that I go into it.
But it’s essentially knowing what hat you’ve got on at that time, and being conscious of that, and, uh, and therefore, uh, being the best version of that, of that self
Rob: That’s brilliant. That is brilliant. And that revives the self-awareness conversation. You can’t do any of that if you’re not in touch with yourself.
Matt Formston: Yeah. If [00:36:00] you’re not being honest about who that version of you is.
Rob: Yep, and that goes back to the honesty. You need to be honest about who you are. and it’s, again, what a brilliant lesson, for our listeners to hear, and hopefully those of you who are younger than, say, 40, really listen to this again.
Every hat, as Matt says, if you own every part of yourself and you turn up authentically with that part every time, wonderful. Life will be wonderful and easier. Matt, that is a brilliant lesson. Let me ask you how long it took you to figure that
Matt Formston: Well, most of my life. I, this is, these, most of these things I’ve only unlocked in the last probably 10 years.
Um, and then I’ve only been, uh, just, I mean, through the process of writing this I’ve been a- able to [00:37:00] articulate these lessons.
because you do things. It’s like I would, I would ask you and I would ask the audience, how do you walk?
Rob: One foot in front of the other
Matt Formston: okay. But a bit more detail. It’s, it’s an ex- it’s a, it’s a challenging thing to answer, right? because we, we just walk
Rob: We just walk.
Matt Formston: We’ve been doing it since we were little therefore, we just do it and we don’t know how we do it
Rob: Yep.
Matt Formston: Our hip flexors fire and our knees com- you know, and we do, all these things happen in our bodies, but we know- we don’t know how to articulate it.
Rob: Yep
Matt Formston: And it’s the same with a lot of the things that we build as capacities in our, um, in our business mind, in our, uh, in the way we present as, as parents, and as the way we p- we turn up, in our sporting club. We just do it.
Rob: Yeah
Matt Formston: but it’s until you s- you know, you sit down and you start working out, how do I do these things, it takes t- till you actually go, oh, that’s a, that’s a lesson.
And when you do those things, when you self-reflect and you work out how you do things, then you can then make it a conscious thing and you make it a skill, and then you can lean into it and get better at it. [00:38:00]
So, um, yeah, so it took me a long time to work these things out, but essentially where that one really came about was when I was, In 2014, I was a professional cyclist. I was riding about 100 kilometres a morning, running a sales team.
I’m doing training in the morning. I do; I do gym at lunchtime. Uh, I, I was married. I had my first child. I won a, you know, I did 140% of my sales number that year in one of the, uh, you said it in my intro, you know, one of the largest corporates in Australia.
Um, I was doing all these things, so I had to, I had to build this skill. I did it unconsciously. I didn’t do it on purpose, but I had to build this skill of wearing all these different hats and doing the time management part of it and then getting conscious about h- you know, being efficient in all those parts, because I just didn’t have time.
I was running four lives, but I didn’t have the time to run four lives. So, I just had to build the capacity to, a- and the efficiency to be able to fit all those lives into one life.
Rob: Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, l- look, a lot of people use the term compartmentalize.
I personally disagree with that. I, I like your method better. [00:39:00] Be aware of it and schedule them.
Yes. Schedule, this time I’m going to do- I’m going to be a dad. This time I’m going to be a husband. You know, this is the time I’m going to be an athlete.
No, I, I
Matt Formston: then you’re non-negotiable, right on that time. That time can’t then be, you know, pushed out because if something
Rob: That’s important factor. It’s not negotiable. Do it, be true to yourself and stick to it. Matt, this is, this is great stuff. I really appreciate that.

Lesson 9: Diversity And Inclusion Need A Divorce

Rob: And I don’t think we’re going to get any, controversy over that, but we may get controversy over lesson number nine.
Matt Formston: we definitely will
Rob: so … And it’s not that I disagree with it, but it’s the way it’s worded.
so, people, you need to listen to Matt’s lesson here and try to understand the intent behind it. So, lesson number nine: diversity and inclusion need a divorce, but they should stay close friends So
Matt Formston: this is not one of the lessons in my book. This is not one of [00:40:00] the, the hard standards, but it is a chapter, and it is, um, and it is something that I strongly believe.
the world’s gone a bit mad on, on DEI.
I work a lot in this space. So, um, for anyone that’s judging right now, I’ve probably done more work in this space than most people in the world. it’s a flawed concept. So, and the reason it’s a flawed concept is because we’re including, uh, a- from a business perspective – especially from a business So we’re including the words diversity and inclusion as one bundled product.
Rob: Yep.
Matt Formston: And they don’t work together. So, diversity is absolutely a value add for if you think about a board, you definitely don’t want nine men or nine women that all grew up in the same suburb and all had, you know, that all have the same life experience and went to the same university on a board, because they will absolutely have group think and they will not generate the best outcomes and decisions.
So, 100%, diversity’s a great thing, and having people from wide range of d- you know, diverse ex- lived experience, challenges, [00:41:00] backgrounds, l- you know, work experience, that’s what you need, right?
so no, no challenges there. Inclusion, though, people shouldn’t just be included because of their, because they’re diverse, because they have a different gender, or they d- have a different, have a disability, or they have anything.
We shouldn’t just be carving off roles for people in business because we want to include them. So, where inclusion works, I, I used to, um, I coached rugby, junior rugby league. Uh, my son is, uh, about, when he was playing under nines, our next-door neighbour was at the same class as him, he had Down syndrome. so young Jacob, and this story ‘s in my book, um, young Jacob, had Down syndrome. He was not able to play at the, you know, with the boys full time. But I said to his mom, “Let’s put him in the team.”
So, he registered. She said, “Oh, we’ll just get him to play one game.” I said, no, no, he can be at every training session and play every game, but s- slightly differently.” So, he would turn up to training, one of our other neighbours would help out.
He would do some of the drills that he could do, but most of the drills he’d have to just do something else. He’d turn up to a game. I would say to the other coach before the game, “Hey, mate, I’ve got this, one of the boys on our team. He’s [00:42:00] got Down syndrome. You kick off to us.
Our, Our, boys will get him the ball.
He’ll run and score a try. Just let your players know not to tackle him, and then I’ll, and then he’ll come off the field.” So, he gets to be part of the game in, in his way.
So, I’d tee these coaches up. The other players would, it’d be like a, something out of Rambo.
The other players would run at him, and they’d, like, fake dive away. And, um, every- the whole, everyone loved it. The community was right behind it. Most of the time Jacob would turn up in his team jersey.
Sometimes he’d turn up in his Parramatta E- Eels jersey. Sometimes he’d turn up in his Parramatta Eels jersey with his Pa- Parramatta Eels ball, and I couldn’t get him to give me his ball, so he’d be running down the field with the game ball and his Parramatta Eels ball.
It was just, and he’d score his try, biggest smile on the whole planet. Great. Right? That’s inclusion. So, he got to be part of it. But, but then when we get back to playing, he’d go off the field, the boys are then back into full game mode and it, and it’s about who’s the best, you know, what, about the b- who’s the best team. So, I think in business it’s the same way.
Like, I think at, at a, at an entry level, yes, we can do some inclusion and bring people into entry-level [00:43:00] roles. But when we start carving off roles for, I’ve seen it now in business where for certain g- genders or whatever, we’ve, we’ve, assigned a, a target, and then it gets people’s nose out of joint because then people sometimes they feel like they’ve earned the role or someone else is judging them because they were just included because of their, because they were different, and it just doesn’t work.
So that’s why I believe that diversity and inclusion, they need a divorce. So, we need to look at them as two separate things- and they both have their, they, they, both have a lot of value. But when you bundle them together, which we’ve done in corporate Australia, it absolutely doesn’t work
Rob: Yeah. Well, it’s not just corporate Australia, is it?
Matt Formston: Well, no, it’s not. It’s ca- it’s the globe. Well, it’s, it’s Western society.
it hasn’t, the rest of the world hasn’t taken off and gone mad on it, but western society has. And look, it’s, it’s important, but we need to get it right, and we need to understand what it is we’re doing
Rob: Well, I, I had a, a guest on, from the UK who said, ” DEI doesn’t work unless you have an off-ramp, unless you, you have an exit plan”. And [00:44:00] unfortunately, we just don’t have an end date for it. People are going to continue to do it because there is still a lot of people out there who don’t get it.
Matt Formston: Well, but I think even s- even that phrase, diversity and inclusion, I think you’re still bundling the two words together- with an end date.
Rob: uh,
Matt Formston: So, I, I think we just need to say diversity in business, and inclusion needs to be a thing that’s not necessarily needs to be in business.
We don’t need to include people just for the sake of including
Rob: I’m not disagreeing with you at all. I mean- uh, I, I wrote my master’s thesis on board diversity, and I made the s- similar points to, to what you’re making. it just gets me because this whole argument is very similar to equality and equity argument.
Yes, I mean, eq- equality and equity are two different things.
Matt Formston: Absolutely.
Rob: So, let’s all try and just figure this shit out [00:45:00] because we need to live in a kinder, better world. maybe I’m getting too old- and maybe I’m getting cranky, um, when I see the injustice. but I’ve been in business for a very, very long time, and the one thing I do not like in business is quotas.
Matt Formston: Yes
Rob: There’s no need for a quota.
Matt Formston: That’s, it’s a flawed concept.
Rob: It is
Matt Formston: Yeah. I think, like, if you’re talking about quotas for, for roles, I think you can potentially do… If you really want to do diversity and you, and you want to do a bit of inclusion, you can potentially do quotas for, the talent pool, so people get included at a talent pool level.
But once you get to a decision level, there should be no quotas involved.
Rob: Yeah. that’s a good idea. I like that. we can again talk about this for a long time, but, as I said, it’s going to be controversial.
So-
Matt Formston: Oh, absolutely.
Rob: people, to help
Matt Formston: I’m up for it. I’m up for the discussion.
Rob: If to help our algorithms, if you don’t agree with this, just put it in the [00:46:00] comment, and we’ll make sure that we get back to you. I’ll send them over to Matt, and he’ll reply as well.

Lesson 10: Trust, The Bedrock And The Amplifier

Rob: Um, okay, let’s move on to our final lesson, which is I don’t know. It, it baffles me, because, um, while I understand one word, the other two I need an explanation for. So, lesson number 10 is all about trust, the bedrock and the amplifier.
What do you mean by the bedrock and the amplifier?
Matt Formston: I believe that trust is, it’s the foundation of high performance or business or anything, b- and it’s also the amplifier. So, you’ve got to get it right, otherwise you don’t have a foundation.
And when you get it, and when you really get it right, it will e- it will just amplify everything you do
Rob: Still don’t get it. Okay.
Matt Formston: So, let me give you my formula for trust. so, trust equals standards, times consistency, times time. And the times, Mark- [00:47:00] is, intentional. So, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a multiplication. There’s no addition.
So, if any of those variables, standards, consistency, time, are zero, it’s all zero. if you get trust right, you can ch- ch- charge higher margins, you get, uh, better retention, less churn.
It’s just good for everything, right? It’s good for leadership. and, and we can apply this formula to any- You can apply it to business, to people. You can apply it to a product. For example, Apple, they’ve had h- high standards in their product. They’ve done it consistently, they’ve done it over time, so therefore they have a high amount of trust in their products.
People will argue that, but I’m just going to use that as an example.
you could say that about people. And then if you look at brands that have been damaged, because they’ve made mistakes, they’ll… either their standards have dropped or they’ve been inconsistent.
So, you can apply this formula to anything. But so, then people will say, “Oh, well, you know, if you get trust right, then you get the right to char- charge, higher margins.
You get better at-” So they’ll say that as the, the benefit on top. But I would say if you… So that, I think it’s [00:48:00] the top, it’s the thing that actually makes things amplify and escalate, and if you get it right, you can basically, you can just take over the whole market, right? Because whoever has the highest amount of trust in the market will therefore basically own most of the market share.
But if you don’t have it as a baseline, then you then you just will erode all of your
Rob: Okay,
let me see if I, I get this. So, trust is the bedrock. In other words, is the foundation of everything you do, and without that foundation… Well, without that foundation, then everything crumbles. We know that. But because you have that foundation and because you’re solid, that amplifies you and, or your business or whatever in, in your circle, in your sphere of influence.
Matt Formston: Whatever you’re doing
Rob: Yep. So, you need trust to build the foundation. You need the foundation to be solid, to basically [00:49:00] herald out the fact that you are trustworthy
Matt Formston: And, and when you get it right, like when you go from just having a baseline of to being very very good at it and building that trust I mean, I call it a trust mountain. So, every, every little evidence of trust, every time you have a standard and you do it consistently, you build a little grain of sand, and you build a, eventually build this trust mountain.
When you build a trust mountain, you basically, you can do whatever you want. And that, in your career, for example, if you’re the person that’s trusted in your business, you can say, “well, I’m going to do this crazy thing,” and the business, you know, if you’ve built enough credibility, the business will say, “Yeah, let’s go,” and they’ll back you on it.
it, it works everywhere
Rob: I like that. It’s going to… I, I, I’m going to have to think that through a lot more, but I understand what you’re saying. I see the power of it.
I just personally need to internalize it, because I’ve never heard it before. Not that I disagree with it by any stretch of the imagination, but
Matt Formston: It’s, it’s my current goal is to be the world leader in trust because I just don’t think enough people value it.
People know [00:50:00] that it’s an important thing. They call, they call it a value, but then they don’t answer, “Well, okay, well, how do you build it? How do you measure it?”
But with this formula that I’ve built, you can actually build it, you can measure it, and therefore you can use it as a tool.
Rob: Matt, you have shared with us 10 very powerful lessons and I really appreciate you making time from your busy schedule To have a chat with me and discuss these and share these lessons with the world. I really do appreciate that.
Before we sign off, let me ask you one question. So, what would you have told your 20-year-old self?
With all the knowledge you have now- if you had the opportunity to jump in your way back machine, what would you have told your 20-year-old self?
Matt Formston: It’s funny, I get asked this question and I think I’ll change the answer m- but I always answer the same, the same way. Don’t worry about what other people think too much.
I was way too worried about every- everyone else’s opinions and thoughts [00:51:00] and, worry less about what other people think. And that, that doesn’t mean you have to, you know, therefore be bad or impact other people negatively. Like, definitely c- like, care about other people and don’t have, uh, create negative impacts for them.
But definitely Don’t do things because you worry about what they think
Rob: Yeah.
that’s great, and I wish that I had said that to myself, many years ago as well. I mean, we all do it now, but we’re wiser now. We’ve been through it, and we realize that it doesn’t matter what people think of And the truth is, people don’t think of us.
Matt Formston: No, that’s right. It’s a very egotistical thing to worry that other people think about you, right?
Um,
Rob: It really is.
Matt Formston: And I, and I think the, the, the flawed concept in, in that whole exercise is that if either of us told the younger versions of ourself that advice, it wouldn’t have been… It would’ve fallen on deaf ears, because can’t put a, an old head on young shoulders.
Rob: Very true. Very true. Matt, it’s been an absolute pleasure [00:52:00] speaking with you today. I really want to thank you again for making the time and sharing your wisdom with us. If there’s anything that you would like to say before we sign off
Matt Formston: Not really. Get your hands on a, on a copy of Why Not, and, uh, if you’ve got a corporate conference coming up, I’d love to come and chat to your team
Rob: So, let’s all thank our guest today, Matt Formston. Matt is a speaker, an author, an athlete. he’s on boards of directors. He’s done a lot,
And is a member of the Order of Australia. So once again, Matt, thank you so much for your time today.
You’ll see a link to Matt’s book. Go ahead and you’ve got all of Matt’s details in those links. Go ahead and book Matt, get his book, and definitely listen to this again.
Thank you all for tuning in to 10 Lessons Learned, where we try to make the world a little wiser, lesson by lesson. Thank you. See you next time.

Thanks to our 10 Lessons team that make our show possible: Our Episode Editor Codie Comeau, Marketing and social media managed by Yi Wang, and our Producer Robert Hossary. Sponsored as always by Professional Development Forum. You can find the www.professionaldevelopmentforum.org.

You’ve heard from us we’d like to hear from you. Email us it’s podcast@10lessonslearned.com.

Remember, this is the podcast the only podcast. That’s makes the world wiser lesson by lesson.