Floyd_Ormsbee-10Lessons50Years

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:00:00] I’ll always tell my students, you know, that the best source of information for a leader is the people that are, that are following that leader. Because if they don’t listen to them, they’re not going to be in a leadership position for very long.

Robert Hossary: [00:00:11] Hello, and welcome to 10 Lessons it Took Me 50 Years to Learn, where we dispense wisdom, not just information, not just mere facts.

We dispense wisdom to an international audience of rising leaders. My name is Robert Hossary and I’m your host for this episode. This podcast is supported by the Professional Development Forum. PDF helps young professionals accelerate their performance in the modern workplace. On this podcast you’ll hear honest, practical advice that you can’t learn from a textbook, frankly, because it took us 50 years to learn all of this stuff.

Today’s guest is Dr. Floyd Ormsbee. Floyd is an assistant professor of consumer and organizational studies and the associate Dean of undergraduate programs and operations at the Clarkson University‘s David D. Reh School of Business. And he also is the owner of Genaffex training. Floyd also teaches, undergrad post-grad and executive graduate courses in organizational behavior negotiations, organizational policy, strategy, strategic planning leading organizational change, relationship management and change leadership.

And if that’s not enough for you, he also leads students in educational trips to Australia and Thailand, which by the way, is where I met him. Floyd, welcome to the show. And thank you for speaking with us today.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:01:40] Thank you. Thank you very much. Nice to see you.

Robert Hossary: [00:01:42] And you, my friend. That’s a, that’s a huge background that you have there. Glad you made time to come on this podcast and talk to us.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:01:51] Always. I think it’s important that, you know, to make sure that those of us that have seasoned ourselves over some periods of time, not necessarily 50 years, but To share that. I mean, it took a long time to learn this stuff and if, if somebody else can get benefit from it, I think it’s really incumbent on leaders to share that information with the younger people.

Robert Hossary: [00:02:09] Yeah. Very well put. And that’s what we’re all about. And that’s why we invite people like you on Floyd who want to be part of this project and share what you’ve learned.

So, let’s, let’s start off with the, the lesson we asked every one of our guests, what was your very first business or life lesson that you can think of?

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:02:32] I would say it was really embrace every opportunity that you get to learn and to try out some new things. My, my first experience with real business. I mean, I had worked in stores and you know, that sort of thing, I was working in a convenience store and it was actually at the time was a small gas station going to college and working there part time and had the opportunity to take over as the manager of that store. And how I found out about that was I went into work on Friday afternoon and the senior area supervisor was there and he said, Hey, you know what, your manager’s going to be quitting.

He’s leaving on Monday. And we’d like you to take over as manager. And I said, well, That would be great. And so, they tossed the keys to me and I caught the keys and Monday morning I went back, I worked all weekend as you know one of the people that work there and Monday morning, I was boss. I always tell my students, you know, look when you become a manager, you know, the extensive training that you get, they give you a huge book.

With volumes of scenarios and, you know, on Tuesday, Robert was being difficult. So, you go to the section on Robert’s being difficult today and it’ll tell you exactly why and what to do. And then, you know, obviously there is no book like that. Yeah. That was a great way to learn. And it was nice. To transition from being a coworker to then being the manager because I didn’t feel I was the boss, there’s a very kind of a misnomer out there by many people that, you know, when you’re the boss that you’re the be all do all and people have to listen to you and that you’re above everybody else and absolutely not. And I always made sure that if I asked my employees to do something. That that was something that I had already done myself.

And that was, that was my first lesson in business was people will follow you if you’re credible and if you’re honest and if you’re genuine and if you go in and you’re, you know, boastful and pointing at people and telling them what they have to do, they’re going to do everything they can not to do what you want them to do.

  So that would be the first out of the gate lesson.

Robert Hossary: [00:04:37] That’s a, that’s an incredible valuable lesson because a lot of people don’t get it. They don’t understand, or they don’t realize, or they don’t know that being a leader is more than just a title. Yeah. It’s being able, it’s been credible it’s being trusted by the people that you’re asking to do things your, your employees.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:05:00] Yeah. Several of the courses that I teach, we’ll teach a leadership chapter or a module. And I’ll, I always try to make sure that my students get that that, you know, look, if you’re, if you’re truly going to be a leader, not just, you know, Hey, you know, here’s this title and poof your boss, but you’re going to be a leader.

Then A, you’ve got to have a real, and credible and well thought through vision that you can really make theirs. It’s not about you. It’s not about what you, because you can see it and you know what it is, and you made it up. But if you can, you know, for lack of a better word, sell it to them where it really becomes their vision.

That’s what really produces results. And that’s, it’s not telling, you know, Hey, you do this, and you have to sure. There are times that you may have to do that. You know, military, if you know, you’re in the middle of battle and there are people shooting at you, that’s not the time to sit down and. The hands and ask people how they feel or what they

Robert Hossary: [00:05:53] You don’t call a committee meeting at that point,

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:05:57] you know, but you’re running a very dynamic organization, or you have a group of people that really have great potential, and you’re able to give them something to look for, look forward, or to see in the horizon to work towards.

And it becomes theirs. That’s the good stuff.

Robert Hossary: [00:06:13] Totally. A lot of leaders could learn from what you’ve just said and promote the right people. Who have those qualities? Okay. That’s fantastic Floyd, but let’s move on to your 10 lessons. So, lesson number one, never let anyone tell you no. Well, that’s going to be really hard.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:06:34] Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are practical times where. For example, my, my professional football career, I am five foot seven, weigh 165. And that just, you know, realistically, no that’s not going to happen. Or my professional basketball career or ice hockey career. No, w if there’s something that’s just practically going to limit you from doing something, then you have to, you know, you have to be realistic about it, but if there’s something that you want to work towards that, you know, and it’s, it’s more than just.

I want, it’s got to be in here. It’s got to be in your heart and it’s in your heart and you know it, and it’s part of you and you really want it. And it’s just a matter of. And I’m not saying to what and break rules or not to pay attention to that. But if it’s because of, you know, this one little hurdle, you’ve got to go for it and there will be people that will tell you no, if you, if you believe in it and you know, you have the capacity to do it, and you have the requisite skills and knowledge and the wherewithal to go after it.

Don’t let somebody tell you, no, you can’t just go and do it. And as you do it, they’ll start to come around and they’ll start to see and realize that Holy cow, this is a person that’s really doing that. And it earns you a lot of respect when you do that as well.

Robert Hossary: [00:07:46] And I can speak from firsthand experiences.

I’m sure you can too, Floyd, that those times where you have listened to the no and the no doesn’t mean that, that a person. You know whether it be a relative or a friend or a colleague says, all you can’t do that I know could come from society and the societal pressure you feel as a (for example) male in this society, my role is to do Y. That’s not true, do what you want to do.

Follow your vision, follow your dreams, and it will work out. You will. Floyd. I agree with it. You will find the way. To do it because I think that’s your point. If your passion is strong enough, you will find a way to make it work.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:08:33] Yeah. And if it’s a choice that you’ve made, don’t let somebody else make that choice for you and don’t let them fail you, you know, you do, you go out and do it and make it happen.

Robert Hossary: [00:08:41] It sounds easy, but it’s not because we are all conditioned to do what society tells us to do. And hopefully that conditioning is starting to wane a little now.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:08:51] Yeah. We’re where this came from, was when I went to earn my master’s degree. I was an adult learner. I’d gone back to school after 10 years of an insurance career.

And that’s kind of some time in the insurance industry and manage that convenience store for a while and decided to go back for a master’s degree and was going to continue to work part-time as a, as an insurance agent, while I did, when I met with the director of the program, oddly enough, it was at Clarkson university where I teach now, he kind of chuckled and he goes, you’re D you’re not going to be able to do that.

He says you you’re married.  (Robert Hossary) How old were you then?  (Floyd Ormsbee) I was 32 at the time. And that’s, which is young for Australian model, huh? Not old for ours, but I was married and had a home and he just, he kind of, he didn’t really laugh at me, but he chuckled, and he said, you know, we’ve had some people try it. And he said, you’re not going to be able to do that.

And I said, well, why don’t you tell me what I need to do on the entrance exam? And let’s, let’s go. So, he told me that. And I got, you know, I did well on the exam. I ended up getting a great scholarship, made it through the program and did very well. And at graduation we were walking into, they have a reception for the graduates after, and the director was walking out the door and we kind of walked into each other.

He stopped. He said, I owe you an apology. And I had completely forgotten that and had he not apologized, I think I’d never remembered it. And I said for what? And he said, I, I kind of laughed at you and poopooed that you are going to be able to do this. And you came in, you know, kick butt and took names.

You did really well. And I’m proud of you and I’m very sorry that I ever said that. And I won’t ever doubt, you know, a student that really has the passion to do it again. And I thought, wow, that’s, that’s impressive. And, and, and, and I’d had him as a teacher and, and, and grew to know him because we worked together, you know, several years later.

Yeah. A wonderful guy. I think he also really walked away from that learning, you know, don’t pull people down, you know, let them go and let them do their thing.

Robert Hossary: [00:10:35] What a great anecdote to prove the point that you’ve just made. Well, that’s wonderful. Floyd. Let’s go on to lesson number two don’t let them see you sweat.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:10:45] Yep. Never let them see you sweat. My father used to say that we, we live in a very rural area kind of a very small towns and that sort of thing. I, I was always not overly confident. So, for example, if you’d have asked me 30 years ago, would I ever go to the school that I, that I went to Clarkson university, private institution, let alone what I teach there, let alone would I be the associate Dean there?

I would have laughed. I would have laughed at you and, and, and never thought that I would ever do that. And what I, as I started to do things in life and started to accomplish things, I started to realize that the only one that didn’t think I could do it was me. And I found that when I became nervous and I, you know, would sort of, you start to sweat and you go, boy, I’m really nervous about this.

Or boy, I don’t know if I can do that. Nine times out of 10, people go boy you’ve seemed so poised, and I thought you were doing so great and all that. And people will, will fold you up with that and help you with that. As long as you don’t keep telling them how nervous you are and how much you you’re, you’re kind of doubting your own abilities.

I’ve, I’ve taught a bunch of different students where. For example, management communication class. I taught a number of years ago. I had an adult student come in and they had to give a speech in front of the class, and she was horribly, horribly nervous. And I just told her, you know, look, they, nobody needs to know that you’re nervous except for you.

I know it now. Nobody else needs to know that. And she got up and she did her presentation and the students afterwards come up and congratulated her. And she came to my office afterwards and said, I almost vomited. I was so nervous. I spent you didn’t say it. You know, a lot of people will get up to do the speech.

You know, they’ve never done a speech and, Oh, I’m so nervous about this and that, it just, it goes better. If you don’t tell people, you’re nervous, then let them figure it out. Yeah, know your craft, know what you do know your abilities and just do the best that you can. Don’t waste mental energy, worrying about whether or not people know you’re know you’re nervous or know, you’re sweating.

Robert Hossary: [00:12:41] So never let them see you sweat up. It’s not a matter of authenticity. It’s not a matter of saying yeah. Lying to people. It’s a matter of self-confidence it’s a matter of admitting. Yes, I am nervous, but I’m going to do this.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:12:56] Yeah. Yeah. And don’t advertise it because that becomes the topic of whatever it is that you’re working on.

So, if I’m giving the presentation in class and I keep going, Oh my God, I’m so nervous. Oh, I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. They’re not,

Robert Hossary: [00:13:10] you make yourself more nervous.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:13:11] Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And then they don’t even know what the speech was. They just know you were nervous. I, and I have another example where this came from as well.

When I first started my teaching career, I had finished my bachelor’s degree, had finished my master’s degree, and was asked by the school that I earned my undergraduate bachelor’s degree yet to come back and teach a couple classes. So, I went back, and I found that I always wanted to be as prepared as I felt that my faculty were when I was there.

Cause it was only a couple of years prior to that, that it was a student, and I would spend. Eight to 10 hours preparing for two- or three-hour class. And I would make sure if somebody asked me, boy, what’s the third word in that fourth sentence in the third line of page 73, that I could answer that. And about four weeks into the semester my department chair, who I’d had as a faculty member and he was, he was a wonderful guy, he passed away a couple of years ago.

Professor Bakhtiari, he was from Turkey. And very strong Turkish accent. And he was one of those faculty that were very loud in class. And he’d point at you if you weren’t paying attention. And everybody was terrified as a man, but he was such a wonderful guy. So, he calls me into his office and asks how things are going in class.

And they said, well, they’re going really well, but I really didn’t realize how much work that was put into preparing for classes. And he said, how much time are you putting in? I sit on. Putting in eight, 10, sometimes 12 hours, you know, to teach a three-hour class. And so, we know this, why, you know, why are you doing, you know, kind of that.

And I said, I don’t ever want to get asked a question that I can’t answer, because I don’t want my students to think, I don’t know my stuff. And he said, don’t you remember a class? And he recanted a time. I was in his class and somebody asked him a question and he just stood there and looked at the student and then he looked at somebody else and, in his class, When he looked across the room, everybody would, feverously start to write notes because if you don’t look the professor in the eye, they can’t see you.

Right. And he looked across the room when he pointed at, somebody said, answer that question. And the students just look back in terror. I answered that question. He asked somebody else, and he had us write a paper about it. And he said, do you remember? I said, I remember that. And he said, I didn’t know the answer to the question.

And I said, I didn’t know that he goes, I didn’t let you see me sweat. Did I? And I thought, my God, my father used to say that, and I never forgot that. And I’ve, I’ve had some of my students sometimes come up and go, how come, how do you remember all this stuff in class? Some of the time you’ll ask a question.

I don’t know the answer and I turn it back on somebody and they’ll answer it. They say I never knew that that’s great. And they decide I’m going to use that in my career.

Robert Hossary: [00:15:47] That’s brilliant. That’s absolutely brilliant. Well, I don’t think we can say more about that. Let’s move on to your third lesson to lesson number three it’s not about the message, it’s about the delivery.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:16:00] That goes back to the very first thing we talked about, you know, being the leader, being the boss. Yeah. I, and this is more of a, I think it’s more about the person than it is about the message or the delivery. And it’s to my mind, what I meant by this is it’s more about putting your ego aside, you know, sometimes when you need to make a point with someone.

You have to give a little, and you may have to concede that maybe you’re not the smartest person in the room, or maybe you have to concede that you don’t have to have the last word or the win. Sometimes it’s just about how you deliver the message. And sometimes that’s leading by example, sometime that sometimes that’s when you are the boss, and you are in the right that you still kind of concede and let the employee make their point.

Maybe they just need to be heard. And it, and it can’t just be, I got to beat this message into you know, it’s about something bigger.

Robert Hossary: [00:16:51] It goes by, as you said to you, if it’s lesson and it’s more selling the vision, not only telling the vision, but explaining why you’ve got an instruction explaining why the instruction is there.

It’s not just a matter of do it, do it because of this. And if you can relay that message to people, if people understand why, they’re doing things, then they’re more likely to do it. So, it comes as, as this lesson says, it’s in the delivery as opposed to the message. So, yeah, I I’m, I’m understanding that more now.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:17:28] I would be very interested to know how many, how many people there are in managerial positions out there who have never been ever received any training on how to be a manager? I had a colleague friend of mine from years ago that said that he and he taught, he was, he was a fellow faculty member. He guessed about 70% of managers and he worked for a variety of different companies.

When someone hasn’t been trained and it’s not, you know, you get everything out of it. A lot of the training you’ve got to come to the table with, you know, with a few things yourself, but when people come in with, without any training and they just, they think that, Oh boss. So, I have to boss people around and tell them and I talk about that in my change management class, you know, look, it’s one thing for me to come in and say that we have to rearrange the department machinery or rearrange the office furniture or whatever it is, and people might do it. They’re certainly not going to understand why, and they’re not going to appreciate it or embrace it. But if we sit down and explain exactly what we’re doing and why we’re doing it, and sure there’s sometimes there’s proprietary information can’t give, but if you can give people a reason why they should do something, they’re a lot more apt to do it than just.

Do this because I told you that.

Robert Hossary: [00:18:40] Absolutely because you, you you’re bringing them along on the journey. And micro-managing is never the way. And I know that’s not at this point, but it’s just telling people what to do is, is the worst form of management.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:18:53] Talk at and talk with her two very different things.

Robert Hossary: [00:18:56] Extremely well, put, talk at and talk with are two different things. Maybe that should be enough. Yeah. Brilliant.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:19:05] That one just popped off my top of mind.

Robert Hossary: [00:19:07] Well, there you are. See, that’s why you’re on this podcast. Floyd. Alright, listen. Number four. Yes. Disagree. But learn from each other. Disagree and learn from each other but that is, that is more utopian thinking. Isn’t it? Because is that a possibility?

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:19:24] I don’t see. Why not? It’s literally just a matter of stop for a minute and certainly you can make your point. You know what it relates back to number three. But listen to what the other person has to say. You never know what you’re going to learn and who you’re going to learn it from.

And in what setting you’re going to learn. It. There are so many different places that we touch the lives of other people. And if. I always am the smartest person in the room and never hear what anybody else has to say. I’m not going to be very smart for very long anyway. And lessons from, you know, leadership in leadership classes.

I’ll always tell my students, you know, the, the best source of information for a leader is the people that are, that are following that leader. Because if they don’t listen to them, they’re not going to be in a leadership position for very long. And you know, when again, there are times when, you know, you have to be a bit more authoritarian again, if you’re in a battle situation or it’s a, you know, a production situation and you absolutely have to follow quality standards than no, I don’t want you to play with the settings on the machine.

But maybe there’s a good reason that we should change it. Don’t go ahead and do it, but let’s talk about it. And let me hear what you have to say. I might not be able to help you with it, but I should at least hear you out. There’s this, I don’t know if it’s a country song or, but it’s always be humble and kind, you know, the song talks about the idea of just doing the little things to be more human with each other, and whether it’s an, a leadership situation, a management situation, it doesn’t cost you anything to be a decent person and to talk kindly you can disagree with somebody and be very kind with them.

And, and have, you know, a very strong disagreement. And not say anything bad about that person or to them, but you can still have very differing opinions and still walk away and learn from each other. Lisa, in my, in my experience,

Robert Hossary: [00:21:08] I am not going to disagree with anything you said. I actually try and live with that philosophy.

But I find that a lot of people don’t understand that it does cost nothing to be nice to people. It, you know, they, they, they bring into the equation, their own ego and say, well, I will lose. You will lose nothing. People. It costs nothing.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:21:33] If you could be a decent human being, people respect you a lot more than, you know, if he can come up with the best insult.

Robert Hossary: [00:21:39] that’s well, hang on, coming up with the best insole is not too bad either.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:21:43] I mean, that’s tough. Don’t get me wrong. But,

Robert Hossary: [00:21:45] I see your point though. I mean, and I will challenge our listeners to this. Think of, or people you have good memories of it. Think about how they treated you and I can guarantee you. That’s why you’ve got good memories of them.

Okay, so let’s move on to lesson number five. Now, Floyd, this is a little dooms-dayish. Tomorrow is not guaranteed.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:22:09] Yep. So don’t procrastinate. As you know, I recently had a health scare and some surgery I didn’t expect. And thankfully it was, it was something that was proactive. I had about a week to prepare for this, between finding out I had to have the surgery and having to have the surgery.

And in that time, I started to go through all the things that I had thought, well, one of these days I’m going to do this. And I realized that, you know, the nature of the surgery I was having, there was a chance that I was not going to get a chance to do those things. And that was, you know, right in the time when I, when I thought about this kind of this lesson in life on top of that, You may recall the Corona virus from last year.

And, you know, there are things that, you know, again, we always think and expect that we can own, you know, Oh, I can always do that. Or boy, we can always go there. We can always go there. You know? And as you mentioned, I bring students to Australia, I was in Australia as you know when Corona hit last year, and I almost was still in Australia after Corona last year.

We got the last flight to Canada and all of that, but we went at the very beginning of that. And what was interesting was even with the amount of stress and anxiety that we had, there was myself and another faculty member and 15 graduate students. And we had quite a journey home. And when we got back after the class was done and grades were in, we polled their students and asked them if they knew, then what they know now, would they have gone on the trip?

And all 15 said, absolutely they would, because at that time, everything was shut down. And their response is what happens if, if things had never or never do open back up, we’ve never got to go. I’ve never gotten to go there. And then all of them wrote, they have to write a very long paper at the end of the trip.

All of them wrote basically this is that you know what, from that long, when there’s something I want to do and I’m able to do it, I’m going to go do that. And that can be getting a degree taking a class. Telling your loved ones that you love them doing whatever it is, because you’re really, you know, you don’t know when that when the clock is going to stop that in your career and in your life, you’ve got to really seize the moment.

Robert Hossary: [00:24:16] Yes, you do. And I don’t want to be a, I don’t want to be morbid about all of this because that’s not what you’re saying. And what a valuable lesson for your students, because had they not gone on that trip? It would, could be years. Before they get to go again. Yeah. If, if at all, if at all, for some of them.

Yeah. But that, that was a very valuable lesson to learn at that age. I mean, these young people to have you looking out for them, number one, they’re very lucky. But to, to, to have that lesson at such an early age now, from our point of view from as you said, from the seasoned veteran point of view, it’s not about, you know, tomorrow may never come.

It’s more about, you know, get off your butt and do the things that you have been planning in your head since you were a kid. Yeah, this is what I’m hearing from you, Floyd.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:25:10] Oh yeah, absolutely. It’s just, it is. It’s a matter of, of if you don’t. I mean, not that any, like you said, it’s not doomsday, it’s not that, you know, the world’s ending tomorrow and, and or that your life is ending tomorrow, but you know, 20 years from now, when you and I are in her seventies and we’re not physically able to go do things or.

Yeah, who knows what the world’s going to look like in 20 years?

Robert Hossary: [00:25:32] What a great point. We’re not physically able and that’s brilliant.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:25:37] It was, you know, with what I recently experienced, there were a lot of unknowns and those were the things that were going through my mind was that you know what I’d always said, I was going to do this.

Or I always said I was going to go and do that. That is the one thing that I was hoping and praying for is that you know what, I’m going to go do that stuff. And I’m going to make sure that I can and thank, you know, whatever being you, you pray too, that it worked out that I, that I will get to do those things.

Robert Hossary: [00:26:02] So I’m very grateful to have you on. I’m very grateful that your still well, and I hope you always will be. Let’s move on to your next lesson. This is sorry, lesson number six, I think. Yeah. If it were easy, everyone would do it. Well, wouldn’t they?

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:26:19] Well, yes and no. I think we’re starting to learn that.

No, not necessarily, but you know, where this comes from is, is I have many students that will not really, I mean, the students at Clarkson are great students don’t get me wrong, but they’ll sometimes complain that, Oh, it’s four years and I have to, you know, go to class three days a week or two days a week.

And you know, why do we have to, and can I do this? And you know, my response is, you know what? When you graduate, you’re going to be asking a company to pay you a lot of money. And when you ask them to pay you a lot of money, you have to provide them something in return for that. If I can go. And in three hours’ time watching YouTube video and do the same exact thing.

Why would I do the degree instead of just watch the YouTube video? Or why would they hire you instead of watching the YouTube video yourself and that’s, you know, and, and this kind of this lesson was more of a, you know, earn it for yourself because it’s worth it for yourself. And that can be anything from, you know, materialistic things that you might want your education, your job, your family if it’s worth having it’s worth working for, and you should work really hard for it.

But I’ve had a couple of really interesting experiences that, that really brought this to life. One was when I was 10 or 11 years old, I believe there was, I wanted this bicycle. I had a, I had a paper route. You earn $5 a week in the paper out and I’d get a $2 a week allowance or whatever. And his bicycle that I wanted was about 150 bucks.

And this was back in the seventies and that was a lot of money back then. And so, I went to my parents. I was an only child. I was, I was maybe a little bit spoiled. And I went to my parents and I said, geez. I said, I really want this bike. It was a motocross bike. And I had, you know, it was really cool.

And I said, I really want this bike. Would you buy it for me? And they said, Nope we won’t buy it for you. You’d like to buy it. How much money do you have towards it? And I have like $30 saved up and they said, we’ll loan you the money. And I said, all right, behind when you’re 10 years old or 12 years at honest sure.

You know, whatever. So, my father sat down and explained to me how interest worked. And how payments worked and how, you know, when I got my pay from my paper route, and part of my allowance every week was going to have to go to this. And they actually wrote out a little contract and it had to be signed a contract and had to be signed interest.

Now, before anybody thinks my parents were, you know, loan sharks that took advantage of me. They took all that money and put it into an account for me. And I got it back later, but they made me pay every penny back that I borrowed from them and I worked very hard to do that. And what I found was my, my motocross bike every time I would go and ride it through the mud or   through a swamp, when I got home it would get washed and waxed and it never sat outside. And it went into my bedroom at night and constantly being polished and Armor Alled. And that was like the crown jewel possession of my life. And it was because I worked for it and I can remember that bike meant the world to me.

I’d had a lot of other bikes, that I really didn’t pay that much attention to, but I really worked hard for that. And it was a, it was a really nice bike and I really appreciated it later in life, you know, fast forward six or eight years, it was time for me to go to college. And I did pretty well in high school.

And I got to, we used to have a scholarship in New York here in New York state. It was called a Regent scholarship and it would pay for your tuition for the year at a state school. At that time, it was like $750. And I got that scholarship when I went to school. And really didn’t appreciate her. I, I, I had a lot of fun.

My friends and I had loads of fun did well in my classes but didn’t go to class very much. So, if I took an exam, guess in the nineties, I just wouldn’t go to class. And after a couple semesters, I got suspended. I got thrown out for my grades and I can remember being really angry at myself because I lost the scholarship and got thrown out of school.

And when I decided to go back and finish my degrees, it’s a couple of years later, I had been married in the meantime and had a very, you know, young life starting. And when I went back, I had to pay for it myself. And when I went back and I paid for it myself, and not only did I have, you know, Some threats from my family that I, you better do well.

But as a matter of, of having my own nickel in it I made the Dean’s list every semester that I went back to school after that a year or two associates degrees bachelor’s degrees and you know, all of that and always worked very hard at that. And. Realized and noticed that many times when people just get things for free, it’s the, you know, give a person a fish, teach them how to fish thing.

People that, that are just given things. Don’t usually not, that’s not a fair statement. Often don’t appreciate them. Whereas if they’re, if they’ve worked for it many, many times, they’ll appreciate it much more. And if, and if it were easy, Everybody would have it.

Robert Hossary: [00:30:57] It’s true. When you, when you have to work for it, if it’s, it means a lot more to you than when it’s given to you.

No, I do. I do see the point and it’s a very valid one. All right. Well, let’s, let’s move on to lesson number seven. Now again, this is, this seems to be a theme with your lessons, Floyd, lesson number seven, run your own game not someone else’s. Great if you run your own business difficult, if you’re working for someone else, how would you justify or how would you explain that to most of our audience who would probably be working for someone?

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:31:34] I would say that it boils down to you need to be in, do you. People can tell you,

Robert Hossary: [00:31:38] Could you just say that again?

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:31:40] Yeah. You need to be. And do you. You know, do you be, you, people can tell you what they think you should do. People can tell you the direction they think you should go. The job, you should take the projects you should work on.

But if, if it’s not you, and if you are not being genuine, when you make your choices, whether it’s, you know, taking a job or taking a class or doing a college degree, you’re never going to be happy with that. And you know, you’ve got to do things for you because you’re the person that looks back at you in the morning in the mirror.

And then I tell my students, you know, look, when you start your career. As a matter of fact, this week, we were, we were talking about organizational culture and how people fit or don’t fit in it. And I told them, you know, the measure of whether or not you fit in a company many times now there are other many mitigating factors that can impact it.

But the measure of whether or not you really fit in that organization is how you feel when you look at yourself in the morning in the mirror. But if you’re looking at yourself in the morning and it’s, you know, it’s Tuesday morning, you’re going, Oh my God, I can’t believe it’s Friday. Or, you know, you’re 22 years old.

You’ve been working for a year ago and when can I retire? Oh my God, I hate going to work. Pretty good indicator. There’s something wrong. And I’ve had, I’ve had students that I had a student a few years ago that had an offer from an oil company and it was a six-figure starting salary with her bachelor’s degree.

And then she had an offer from a startup company. And it was about half of the salary. And she come in and we talked for probably, I knew I had, I’d had her sister in class. I had her in class. I knew her parents or fathers and alum. And I talked, we talked I’ll bet you for three hours. And she ended up taking the startup company offer that was half.

And at graduation her father kind of goes, you’re the one that talked her out of that. And I know I talked with her and what it was she, she said, you know, yeah, my parents want me to do that, but that’s, it’s, I’m going to be a number I’m going to be pigeonholed. And at the startup, I get to do all these different things and, and they told her, you might have to change the toilet roll.

You might have to pick sticks up if there’s a storm and their sticks on the sidewalk, because we don’t have a maintenance department and she saw that that is great. And her father was really, he understood it. He would have liked to have seen her obviously earn more money. But of course, this is basically what I told her is, look, you’ve got to be, you’ve got to, it’s not your father going to work and, and I’m not double questioning your parents at all, but are the one that in the morning has to get up and go to work.

And you’re the one that when you go to work. Have to be satisfied and engaged in that job. And if you’re doing it for somebody else, you’re never going to be that.

Robert Hossary: [00:34:08] I have had personal experience on that with my children. And as a parent, number one, I would say, do what makes you happy? Yeah, mental health is incredibly important.

And working for people who will challenge that mental health every day, whether it’s through office politics, whether it’s through micromanaging, et cetera, is, is draining. You you’ll write, you’re running their race. You’re not running your race. I edit all of our podcasts. I’m not sure whether we had, or we were having, but one of our guests one of the, one of the lessons in one of our podcasts is “Dad was right”.

And I, I mentioned that I mentioned that because my father once said to me, we had a family business. And while I, I worked there for a very brief time and helped him out, it wasn’t for me and I didn’t being the youngest of three, the other two weren’t in the family business. I was the last one and I didn’t want to disappoint my dad.

And when I told him dad just looked at me and said, You don’t like it don’t do it. And I think that is exactly what you’re saying. Run your own race. You know, don’t run someone else’s I liked that lesson because it hits close to home for me.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:35:29] Yeah. And I mean, it’s, it’s, it resonates in so many different ways, whether it be heiress, the spouse, the, you know, the boss, the friends, whatever it is.

If, if you’re not comfortable with it, you can’t look, you can’t live their life. They have to live their life you have to live yours.

Robert Hossary: [00:35:45] And how do we know that listeners? How does Dr. Floyd Ormsby know that? How do I know that? Because we tried living someone else’s life, we tried making other people happy and we were miserable.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:36:00] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And, and when you, and when you make those changes, a lot of times that are, there are a lot of people that are very miserable because you’re making those changes.

Robert Hossary: [00:36:10] That’s it? I was just about to say, but in the long run, Everyone’s got to be happy because you’re happy.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:36:16] Yeah. Yeah.

You can, you can put, you know, spackle over a lot of holes in the wall, but there’s still a hole in the wall.

Robert Hossary: [00:36:24] Again well, put mate well-put all right, let’s go to lesson number eight. You have to be the one who pushes yourself.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:36:33] Yeah. It’s, you know, it’s live up to your potential. Not down to anything. Again, I grew up in a very small area and yeah.

There was, there was many times there was almost a theme of people not liking to see others succeed. You know, we’re in ugly, financially depressed area. And if someone did well and bought a nice home, it was, boy must be nice, you know? And that, well, no, I worked my butt off for that, you know, or I saved, or I, you know, sacrificed for that.

And a lot of people that I grew up with kind of lived down to those. Kind of those, and it goes back to lesson, number one, the naysayers, and, and we’re almost embarrassed out of doing well or felt bad because they were doing well and you can’t, you’ve got to aim high, and you’ve got to push yourself.

Nobody else will push you to do well. And at the end of the day, nobody else is going to be up in the middle of the night, working on your paper or preparing for the speech for your boss or preparing the project. It’s got to be you. It’s got to go back to the passion and, and what’s in there and you’ve got to have it.

You know, it’s got to be heart and if it’s not heart and you’re not pushing yourself to really achieve all you can, you’re not going to go as far as you could. And you, and you’re cheating yourself and the rest of the world out of what you have to offer the world.

Robert Hossary: [00:37:46] It is true. But self-motivation is a very, very unique and difficult skill to learn.

I think it would start by not paying attention. To anyone else when it comes to your motivation, of course you pay attention to, to the world around you. Of course, you pay attention to your family and friends and your mentors, et cetera. But. They’re not going to get you out of bed in the morning. They’re not going to make you exercise.

They’re not going to make you finish your papers. They’re not going to make you know, do that presentation, close that deal. You’re the one that’s going to do it. And so, the self-motivation portion of this is up to you. And that is a, that is a huge skill to master. So. How do we master that, Floyd? I mean, okay.

It’s great to say you have to be the one to push yourself and I, again, I’m with you there, but for me, it took me close to 45, 49 years to learn how to push myself. So, for our listeners, how do we teach them how to push themselves? What are we, what did your advice to them?

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:38:58] I did this and now I have my students sit down and write out a mission and vision statement.

And they ha you know, I’ll, I’ll ask them to pick some point in time in the future, you know, not next Tuesday, but where do I want to be in, you know, they’re in their twenties in 40 years from now, and just stop for a minute and think about number one. Why do you want to be there? And number two, how do you get there?

And from there, you’ve got to build a plan to be able to work your way to get there. And, you know, anybody can do anything if they really put their mind to it, you’ve got to have a reason to do it. And it’s, and again, It has to be your goal and it has to be your motivation. And it might be that, you know, you want a really nice house because you want a nice house for your family and to raise children and whatever it may be, but that’s got to be your, your driving force that gets you up.

It’s got you. And you’ve got to connect the dots between, I, I need to prepare for this presentation to the board for tomorrow. Because if I do a really good job with it, then I can achieve this or that. Or if you own your own business, you know, I need to work on this product so that we can get this contract, because that will allow me to do this.

And it’s got to be, you’ve got to connect the dots. It can’t be one singular thing, you know, Oh, I want money, or I want, I want to be rich. That’s not it. And it can’t be about the money. The money will come, you know, but it’s got to be something bigger. And more than that, It has to be. You know, we go into an OB lesson between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation.

It’s got to be intrinsic, and it’s got to be up here and in here. And if it’s not, if it’s not, it’s very short lived.

Robert Hossary: [00:40:37] I agree with that. And, and the thing that I see again, and you actually said, You have to be you. Yeah. So, you have to be authentic. So, this mission, and this is not something new and as much as I love your Floyd it’s I know it’s not your, you know, Stephen Covey was talking about writing a, a mission statement, a personal mission statement years and years ago.

Yeah. That’s what we’re talking about. You have to be authentic that the, what motivates you comes from within it comes from understanding who you are, who you want. To be. Yeah. And once you know that it happens, you will find the motivation will be there. And if you listen to one of our earlier podcasts Michael Kelly says all agreements are with yourself.

The reason that that is a powerful lesson, as well as because you don’t lie. Well, some people lie to themselves, but generally, if you make an agreement with yourself, you tend not to break it. Simply because, you know, if you’re authentic with yourself, if you know who you are, you won’t break an agreement you’ve made with yourself.

You’ll break an agreement, make with other people, but not with yourself. So, all of these things tie in together and it’s, it’s a very, very valuable lesson. Thank you.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:41:56] Well, if I can add one more thing to that goes back to, we discussed about leadership and giving the reason that we have to do the change.

That’s true for yourself too. You know, w what is the reason that I want to work towards earning a PhD? Why do I want to own the home? And again, and again, it can’t just be all because I want the biggest house in the street, you know, or I got to have the flashiest car. It’s got to be, there’s got to be a valid reason.

Robert Hossary: [00:42:20] Yeah. Yeah, no, that’s very, very true. Okay. So, let’s move on to lesson number nine. Now this, this is weird. Floyd. It’s a little scary. I’m going to wait for the explanation before I say anything else. Lesson number nine, live a real life. Not a virtual one.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:42:40] Yeah. We’re, we’re up, we’re in a world with a lot of technology now, especially with the recent coronavirus and everything else that’s happened with a pandemic.

You know, it’s very easy to get sucked into a digital life. Not that it’s not that it’s not helpful. Not that we can’t go and see. You know, really cool things around the world, but it’s important too, to just go and have human interaction and human contact, being an organization behavior teacher. I think that there are going to be a lot of organizations that are going to not necessarily suffer but have a bit of a difficult time when people actually start to come back to work in person.

We’re starting to do it at, at Clarkson and its people are uncomfortable right now. A because of the, of the coronavirus, but. It’s a little weird to go to an in-person meeting now, instead of just looking at Robert’s head and shoulders, it’s a really different level of contact. You know, some of the notes that I wrote about this one was things like go out and see people or go to a pub and just talk to a stranger or talk to somebody in a cafe.

And some of the most interesting, really cool experiences I’ve had in my life were on my trips to Australia and to Bangkok where I’ll just walk in somewhere. And sit down and especially in Australia, people are so they’ll come over and sit down and Hey, you mind if I sit down and you start learning about people, you learn so much about the world, I think is just really lacking in that, in that virtual environment.

I’m so afraid of, of what younger people who never knew a world without digital life, on what they could potentially miss out on. If they don’t go out and do that. It’s strikingly different to stand at the Tjapukai  cultural center up in Cairns and shake hands with, you know, one of the first peoples on earth, as opposed to watch a video on, on YouTube about the aboriginals in Australia.

It really is. And, and that’s what that’s about is just a, to be careful not to be afraid. Of the world. Yeah. There are some dangerous things and, and bad people, but the benefits way outweigh those risks.

Robert Hossary: [00:44:42] Your point is valid. It’s going to be hard to explain to people who haven’t experienced it.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:44:47] Yeah. We were fortunate.

We had students in residence, on campus in the fall semester of last year. As well as this year, I mean, they’re in pods and, you know, we’re very careful and shuffled them around, but they’ve very much wanted to come back and we were kind of, we weren’t sure. Well, you know, because we were offering online, they could, they could study remotely and the majority of students wanted that human interaction and, and wanted to be in class.

Robert Hossary: [00:45:11] It is a human need. Now I know a lot of people poopoo Maslow’s hierarchy, structure, but it is a human need.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:45:19] Yeah. That’s why, that’s why isolation in prison. Isn’t as a punishment.

If they liked it, they could be in isolation all the time.

Robert Hossary: [00:45:29] Yeah, that’s an excellent point. Okay. So, before we get to, to the, to the last lesson, lesson, number 10, Floyd, I need to ask you this and for our podcast listeners who Don’t get to see this. And this interview will be on YouTube, but for podcast listeners who don’t get to see this Floyd has a virtual background or the Sydney Harbor bridge and the opera house behind him.

So, he’s basically floating there in Sydney Harbor. Now I bring that up for very, very special reason. So, lesson number 10, Floyd. See the world, meet the people and always learn more. So is this, if I’m not mistaken, you’ve told me once before this photo behind you is the one that you took personally.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:46:12] Yup.

From, from one of the Sydney ferries on one of our trips with the students, I called this my happy place background. But yeah, it is a beautiful picture. It’s such a beautiful Harbor. It’s such a beautiful area. Again, I grew up in a very rural area in upstate New York. Didn’t I, you know, traveled, you know, the East coast of the U S and into Canada and across Canada.

The way I do things is if you’re going to go in and go into the deep end. So, I, my first international trip has go to Australia and bring 17 22-year-olds with you, you know, what better way to learn, how to travel so first of all, I was probably just as wide-eyed as the students were. Everything from it at the airport, watching students stare at the coffee menu and not having an idea of how to order a coffee in Australia.

Robert Hossary: [00:46:58] We’re not Starbucks, man. We have real coffee.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:47:01] Thankfully or not. Yeah. And from, from that to seeing the Harbor bridge and seeing the opera house and all of the, the traveling and passing through different parts of the world, it has, it has. I fundamentally changed me as a person. I can tell you that I approach my life at home.

I approach my job very differently. I approach my interaction with other people very differently. Now. I, I, a lot of friends who’ve never traveled. Most of them want to do travel now. After living vicariously through me my wife and I do like a Facebook page for the trip. And we have, you know, a couple of hundred parents of students that follow us and students that follow us and that sort of thing.

And it’s something that if you can get out to see the world by all means, please do. I have had some where I’ve had, I’ve been to Australia 15 times. So, I’ve had somewhere in the neighborhood of 230 or 240 students that I’ve brought to Australia with me. I’ve had one of those students that ever come back and said they didn’t want to travel anymore.

And he was a kid that grew up literally 10 miles down the road at farm kid grew up in the farm and just, he said it was really cool. Great time, beautiful city, no interest in going back to the city going back and working on the farm, and that’s perfectly fine. Every single other one of those students wrote in their paper that that trip was a life-changing event for them.

And that they literally changed. The direction and orientation of their lives based on now wanting to include travel, to include the jobs they look for. The nature of the jobs, all of that in terms of really appreciating and loving humanity. You know, we, we take graduate students up to Bangkok and then down to Sydney for a weekend on the second trip that we do.

And I had one experience. I think I I’ve talked to you about this before. It was the second or third time that I went to Bangkok and I didn’t know if I was going to get to go back. And of course, the Thai people are, are so friendly and so kind and live on. So little, we are going back to our hotel and it was our last night and I had some, some Thai baht left, and I was going to buy.

My stepdaughter’s some teak cooking utensils and cooking chopsticks. And I stopped and there was this little old gentleman that had his wares set up and I bought some things, and it may be come to five us dollars. And I had. Probably another three or four us dollars’ worth of Thai baht left. So, I gave him the money for the, for the, the items that I was buying.

And I, and I gave them the tip of the, the other, the other Thai baht and I, and he looked at me and he said, no, no, it’s only this. And I said, no, that’s for your family. And he got on his knees. And took my hands and just kept thanking me for caring enough about him to do that, and then said, I want to give you something for your family and gave me probably $10 more with this stuff.

I’m like, we’ll have to feed it that purpose. But I tried, you know and that stuck with me so much as being a defining. Moment of how I view humanity and view. Like I said, the people I work with that the students might everything. And I, I really would hope that, you know, young and rising leaders, that when you get into a position where you can go and see the world, do it, meet the people and just learn all you can about.

You know, don’t just go there and, you know, don’t let us go to Australia, just for the really good beer, go there to learn about the culture, you know, go to Thailand, not just for the really great food, but to meet the people and go to the elephant sanctuary, you know, or. Come to the U S and I don’t know why you’d want to come to the U S but come to the U S and, you know, see things and, and, and just learn everything that you can about the world you’re in, because you’re going to be here for a long time.

You’re going to impact it. And there’s a lot that that world has to offer you if you know where to look for it and know what you’re looking for.

Robert Hossary: [00:50:45] The, the five of us who are part of this podcast, none of us were born in Australia by the way. Oh, well the three of us that live here the four of us that live here were not born here.

I have worked on three continents, lived on three continents. I’ve worked in four countries Siebe as, as lived on three continents and worked in four or five countries. Duff came over to Australia from the U S he’s. Now in Brazil, we are international and. We can attest to what you just said, as far as the, the fact that all these cultural differences help guide you, they help remove the barriers and they help remove the bigotry.

And the more places you go. The more barriers come down, the more bigotry is, is removed.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:51:35] You learn a lot about yourself in those places.

Robert Hossary: [00:51:37] Yes you do. So having said all of that and with everything that that we’ve learned today and everything you’ve learned over your time. We ask our guests one final question.

And that is Dr. Floyd Ormsby. What have you unlearned in the last 50 years? That is what lesson would you have held on vehemently or thoughts that you had about a particular topic that you said yes, this is the way it is, but through experience and through time, you’ve come to change your mind on that.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:52:09] I think it would be to be very careful, to make assumptions about things. Whether that be a level of work that’s required. To do something, whether it’s the, you know, here’s the, let me explain what, what I’m trying to say. Cause it might come out clearer. When I, when I did my PhD, when I completed my PhD at Carlton university up in Ottawa, Ontario, the dissertation process was extremely daunting for me.

I was a first-generation college student. I had a couple of cousins that had gone to college. My parents didn’t get the opportunity. You know, I was kind of the lone Wolf doing it. And I, I was so terrified, so terrified that I wouldn’t be able to do it. And I can remember writing the first few chapters of my dissertation and thinking that, boy, I need to write this, you know, using really big, fancy words.

This doesn’t sound smart enough. And I should go to the thesaurus and look some things up. And my dissertation supervisor is just a brilliant, brilliant author. And actually, she does a lot of work in Australia with the Australian government on work-life balance stuff and things like that. And I can remember her.

Calling me and, you know, come up to the office, we need to talk. Cause I had her in class a number of times and she’d seen my writing and in class it was quite different than what I was writing in my dissertation. And she looks, she goes, who wrote this for you? I said, what do you mean? And she said, you’re a lot of things, but big fancy words, not on that list.

And where did that come from? And I, and I told her, I said, well, it’s my dissertation. And she said, yeah, it’s, you know, you missed one word in that sense. It’s your dissertation. You know, you need to write it from your perspective, not from the thesaurus perspective or Daniel, Webster’s certainly use the right terminology and certainly, you know, to correctly.

And I told her, I said, well, I feel like I’m not making it smart enough. We chatted about that for quite a while. And, and I always went into life with a, I don’t know if it was a, a, an unfounded respect for things that, Oh, it’s a dissertation. Therefore, it must be this, or, Oh, it’s a. That’s a politician and they must be a smart person or, you know, whatever it is.

And I guess that that’s the don’t take for granted about things, whether it be a person, whether it be what you think is an unattainable job. Had I had, I stuck with my assumptions of what I thought I knew it was too to be a college professor at Clarkson university. I certainly wouldn’t be here.

If I thought that I knew what it was to be associate Dean, I’d never been here. And I can remember when I was finishing my first college degrees one, my professor said, well, you should go on, I was at a small state school, a two-year school, and he said, you should go on to Clarkson and finish your bachelor’s degree.

And I can remember telling him, you know, I’m not, I’m nowhere near smart enough to go there. And he said, you have, you have no idea. And I said, no, I, I think I do. And here I am a lot of years later, but here I’m teaching at Clarkson. It’s just every day I wake up and amazes me at all the things that I could have missed.

Had I not just looked at things without the lens of here’s what I think it should be. I’ll put that lens away and look at what it is. And. Face it head on that’s where probably three or four of those lessons came from.

Robert Hossary: [00:55:18] And that, that to me is probably the most valuable unlearned lesson I have heard in all of our podcasts so far.

Thank you. That’s fantastic. Floyd. I really have nothing to say over that because I understand what you’ve just said. And I will say to my listeners, You really need to listen to what this, this final unlearned lesson from Floyd again, because you really need to hear what he’s saying. And it’s a matter of you’ve just got to change your perspective.

Every time you see something new, just move slightly to the left or to the right. You will see it in a different light, and then you can make your mind up about things.

Floyd Ormsbee: [00:56:02] And then the least of which is that there are not. Animals all over Australia that are going to come out in the streets because I have students read a travel book before we leave.

And they, you know, the, the author bill Bryson, it’s a great, they called in a sunburn country. And the, the students who I’ll have them write an essay before we leave, you know, what are your apprehensions? What are you looking forward to? And they’re like, are there really, you know, deadly animals everywhere, you know?

And I’m like, no, there are not, you know, Man eating Koala bears swinging in the trees and Sydney dropping on you as you’re walking down, that’s not going to happen.

Robert Hossary: [00:56:36] With that. I would like to thank you, Dr. Ormsbee for being with us today and sharing this wonderful 10 lessons that it took you 50 years to learn.

I really appreciate that. So, Thank you, Floyd and I, I hope to see you again soon. Hopefully you’ve been listening to them. 10 lessons. It took me 50 years to learn our guest today was Dr. Floyd Ormsby. This episode was supported by the professional development forum. PDF provide webinars, social media discussions, podcasts, parties anything you want, everything you need, you can find more by visiting professionaldevelopmentforum.org the best part, it’s all free.

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