About Our Hosts
Diana White has over 30 years in sales and retail experience, leading stores with revenues of over 10 million and a staff of 200. Consumer psychology, marketing, operations, and leadership are just a few of her skillsets. Seeing a need for startup and operations assistance within the local business community, Diana established D.E.W. Business Solutions, LLC, to provide consulting to small businesses. Currently the Executive Director at Moonshot at NACET, she obtained a Bachelor of Science in Small Business Administration from Northern Arizona University, holds a green belt in Lean Six Sigma, and is a certified Agile Scrum Master. She is committed to helping businesses and non-profits as well as the community at large.
Siebe Van Der Zee is President of Vanderzee & Associates, Executive Search & Coaching. He has served as an international management consultant for over 25 years. For 28 years, Siebe has served as Honorary Consul of the Kingdom of the Netherlands in Arizona. He holds a Master’s Degree in International Management from Thunderbird School of Global Management and he is a current member of the International Leadership Council at GPEC (Greater Phoenix Economic Council).
Jeffery Wang is the founder of Professional Development Forum, an organisation dedicated to help young professionals find fulfilment in the modern Australian workplace for more than 13 years. Since its inception, the forum has hosted multitudes of successful, remarkable, and inspiring leaders. Through this journey, Jeffery developed a passion for empowering culturally diverse talent and unlocking their leadership potential. Jeffery is a passionate advocate of genuine diversity, servant leadership and mentorship and engages actively both as a mentor and mentee. Jeffery has almost 20 years of experience working as a sales and strategy professional in the IT Industry looking after enterprise and government customers. He has lived in Taiwan and New Zealand before migrating to Sydney where he currently lives with his wife and two boys.
Robert Hossary has been involved in the not for profit/charity sector for the past 12 years. He is currently CEO for the DANII Foundation a voice for type 1 diabetes in Australia. Robert also has an excellent knowledge in international business. Since 2011 – 2018, Robert was the General Manager for the American Chamber of Commerce in Australia (AmCham) and helped advise many Australian and US companies about their international expansion requirements. Prior to that, Robert was Regional Vice President for the Americas for a technology manufacturer. He has also worked in Taiwan with responsibility for Asia Pacific and the Middle East. With a background in Technology, Transport, Fashion and Healthcare, Robert has a wealth of experience to share.
Yi Wang is passionate about applying a risk lens and toolkit to a business challenge, making it meaningful to stakeholders so to make better decisions and achieve their success. Having lived the life of a 1st-generation migrant in Australia, Yi completed a hybrid education in accounting and IT and worked in professional service and many digital-first industries. Yi received countless support and advice generously given by others, so he is a strong believer in mentorship and its power to help young professionals to realise their potential. Outside of his professional life, Yi enjoys playtime with his family, reading and is studying towards professional qualifications in mental health and counselling. Since joining the #10lessonslearned team, Yi has re-energised the team and helped refine a marketing strategy to amplify the outreach of the wisdom we aspire to share.
Siebe’s Pick 01:44
Robert’s Pick 13:22
Diana’s Pick 21:07
Yi’s Pick 33:03
Jeffery’s Pick 43:35
What did we disagree with? 52:49
1000 Lessons Learned
[00:00:13] Jeffery Wang: Hello and welcome to the podcast 10 Lessons.
[00:00:15] Jeffery Wang: It took me 50 years to learn where we dispense wisdom, not just information, not mere facts, not mere platitudes to an international audience of rising leaders. In other words, in this podcast, you’ll hear valuable insights that you cannot learn from a textbook because it took us years to learn this stuff.
[00:00:31] Jeffery Wang: My name is Jeffrey Wang, the founder of the Professional Development Forum host.
[00:00:35] Jeffery Wang: I’m joined today by your producer, Robert Hossary, my co-hosts, Siebe Van Der Zee and Diana White. We’re also very excited to have Yi Wang in front of the camera for the very first time today’s podcast. It’s special because we mark a very significant milestone.
[00:00:53] Jeffery Wang: This is our 100th episode. Considering that about half of all podcasts only have 10 episodes of fewer, this is quite an achievement. Clearly motivated by our love to share wisdom with the world over the past two and a bit years.
[00:01:07] Jeffery Wang: Together. We have spoken to about a hundred wise guests, uncovered almost a thousand lessons.
[00:01:12] Jeffery Wang: There are some strong themes that have emerged through all of these, and the same lessons were told in very different ways with very different stories. There are lessons that we feel very strongly about, some that we have personally experienced and agree with as well as others. That hasn’t worked for us.
[00:01:29] Jeffery Wang: Today we’re gonna have a conversation about these lessons and why we felt so strongly about them.
[00:01:34] Jeffery Wang: So let me start with Siebe. What are the lessons that you have particularly liked,in the whole time that we’ve been doing 10 lessons?
[00:01:44] Siebe Van Der Zee: Yeah, Jeffrey, that’s a tough question, right? Because we’ve had so many great guests with so many great lessons that I really had to, go through it,very closely.
[00:01:55] Siebe Van Der Zee: So, The first lesson I want to mention is from Dr. Cindy Banton, lesson number eight.
[00:02:00] Diana White: All right. number eight, challenges and obstacles are excellent opportunities to gain strength and grow.
[00:02:08] Cynthia Banton: Ooh, I’ve had my fair share of challenges and obstacles. I have this sign on my office wall and it said, it says, God only gives us what we can handle. And the second line says, apparently God thinks I’m a bad ass because I’m a cancer survivor.
[00:02:32] Cynthia Banton: Um, there were times when, uh, financially started trying to start my business. I almost went broke. Um, I’ve survived, you know, uh, company acquisitions and layoffs and things like that. And when you’re in those types of situations where the obstacles and challenges are so strong, you really, I changed my perspective on things.
[00:02:54] Cynthia Banton: I, first of all, I go, well, you got nowhere else to go but up. And what did you learn from this? That’s the biggest thing, learning from those obstacles and challenges and, and using that information. I think all the obstacles and I wouldn’t trade it. Anything people say you would have cancer again? Well, no, not necessarily, but it showed me a strength and depth within myself that I didn’t know I had, and coming out of it, nine months of chemo and radiation, I felt like I can do anything.
[00:03:25] Cynthia Banton: This didn’t kill me. So it was empowering almost. And it changed my mindset on challenges and obstacles, not to say that I still don’t get in the weeds and go, Hey, what’s happening? Why me? Why, why can’t things just be smooth? Why do they always have to be? Yeah, I do still get in that and it’s okay. I embrace it.
[00:03:46] Cynthia Banton: And then I come out of it. But I think challenges and obstacles are there for us to learn from. And I know it’s cliche to say they make us stronger, but they actually do. It’s like the ying and the yang, you got to have the good with the bad. So obstacles and challenges. I welcome them. I really do.
[00:04:01] And she gave some great examples and you know, very sad as well. She suffered from cancer. she had to deal with that. but she learned lessons to overcome that and to deal with that.
[00:04:13] Siebe Van Der Zee: And I think it’s fair to say that. Obstacles indeed have the potential to make a person better and stronger. And, I also want to add in this our good friend Diana White, because she talked in reference to that particular lesson about the relevance. Of having a mentor, and that’s obviously highly appreciated.
[00:04:34] the next lesson I want to mention is coming from Matt Bai well known journalists, lesson number six, people always make you feel the way they feel.
[00:04:44] Matt Bai: So, yeah,I, this is another one I talked to my kids about a lot, so I, you know, when I was, I’m trying to think. I was at Newsweek, so I was probably in my early thirties. I was traveling around all the time and I was traveling from one city to and I met this woman on a plane and she’s a psychologist.
[00:05:02] Matt Bai: And, we got to talk in and as it turned out, as weird things happened, we spent some time together after, she was coming to, to Washington where I was living. And, and she told me something as we were having this discussion, she said, well, the thing is however people make you feel is generally how they’re feeling themselves.
[00:05:18] Matt Bai: So if they make you feel small, it’s because the world makes them feel small. If they make you feel dumb, it’s because the world is making them feel dumb. And it was such a simple formulation, and it’s probably pretty standard for people who study the human psyche, I guess. . But it’s always stuck with me and I found it to be very useful in life to remember.
[00:05:38] in fact, a tremendous example of that to me is President Trump, who I’ve written about this, I’ve written columns about this, you know, who. who, you know, makes our politics feel very small and trivial. and I think because he often feels small and trivial has a fear of that.
[00:05:52] Matt Bai: And so I, I, you know, for me,it’s been very useful to, in dealing with people in difficult situations or, just to help me remember. , that person is coming from a place of their own weakness. and not to take it as personally as I otherwise would.
[00:06:07] Siebe Van Der Zee: Again,very good lesson and I had to think about it because yes, the way people feel, they, their personality, their emotions come through. But I also think that is an interesting concept.
[00:06:19] Siebe Van Der Zee: When we wanna learn about people, the way people behave, it’s not just how they deal with us and communicate with us. It is a way for us to understand where they’re coming from. So even when we talk, for example, about empathy, if someone is sad or frustrated, you can pick up on that based on their behavior.
[00:06:38] Siebe Van Der Zee: So coming from Matt Bai, I thought I was a very important lesson. I add, from,Baishakhi Connor. I thought also very interesting lesson. Lesson number four, learn the old way and then find your own way. my gosh, you know, so much, learning, and that’s what we’re talking about. very helpful.
[00:06:58] maybe my favorite, if I can address that as well, in this particular session, came from our Native American artist, Jacob Butler. He talked about Know Your Worth.
[00:07:10] Jacob Butler: So I’ll use an example, I guess in my art. So before I start any type of like new medium. And so for me, like, I like to move around in different art forms and work in different mediums because it keeps things fresh. And for me, the study of that art form is really what gets me excited about things.
[00:07:25] Jacob Butler: And so the work that I put into my art, it doesn’t just start with me picking up a paintbrush and putting it to canvas or picking up a piece of silver and starting to manipulate it with the chasing tool. It’s hours and hours of research before I even get into the actual craft. And so I would go to market and because I.
[00:07:43] Jacob Butler: Felt that I was not of the degree or standard that some of these artists that were known or had names behind them and had a lot of experience I would sell my work for a lot less. I would sell my work for a lot less and I would downplay my own worth in the conversations that I have with the customers.
[00:08:02] Jacob Butler: And I even to the point where I’d point out mistakes of my work and basically talk myself outta sales
[00:08:08] Siebe Van Der Zee: Bad salesperson .
[00:08:10] Jacob Butler: Yeah. And so, what I kind of learned though is that, you know, a lot of people wouldn’t buy my work. And I asked somebody that was really interested in my work. They were a friend of mine and so I, I felt comfortable enough to ask them.
[00:08:21] Jacob Butler: And I said, you know, you passed on my piece here. I said, , I feel that it’s executed a little better than the piece that you bought down the way. And I understand that art’s subjective and it touches people in different ways. And so something that may not catch your eye with, in my, you know, in my booth is gonna catch your eye somewhere else.
[00:08:39] Jacob Butler: But I, I feel comfortable enough asking him. And he said, well, when I went to your booth you told me all the things that was wrong with it, all the things that you messed up on, and then you sold it for next to nothing. And he said, and I really didn’t want to pay for it. And he said, one, because you downplayed what it was.
[00:08:55] Jacob Butler: And he said, the other reason is you don’t have value in it yourself. And to me, I’m like I do. You know, but Just putting the number on it. I was looking at it like, well, if I, even if I sell anything, I’m successful. But what he was saying is that if I don’t find value in my own work to put a price on it that reflects the work that went into it, then why should I expect others to?
[00:09:15] Jacob Butler: And so it kind of resonated with me and I sat on it for a while. And so the next market we had, I, I put my prices like very high. And I said, well, this is what I’m gonna sell it for. You know, I do have a job. I work full-time as the garden coordinator. And I said, you know, I do this on the side, but I’m gonna own the work that went into it.
[00:09:34] Jacob Butler: I’m gonna own the time and what it meant to me to make these things. And I’m gonna put a price on it. And if it sells, then great. And if not. , I’m not feeding my children with this, right? And so the sales that I make off of my artwork, I’m able to do things with my kids. I’m able to give them a a fuller life, take ’em on vacation show them things that my parents showed me and provide for them.
[00:09:54] Jacob Butler: And in a little bit better way than just by getting by, you know? And so, if I sell it, great and if not, I’ll find another home for it later. And so what was interesting is I used to have collaborative booths with a friend of mine, and it was all to save money. So we would work on something together and we would put it out and we’d only have to pay half of the price of the booth.
[00:10:14] Jacob Butler: And he said, well, you determined the cost of this. What do you wanna sell it for? And I said, well, and it was a pot, it was a vessel. That takes a lot of skill and there’s not very many people that, that make them. . And we made it together and I had painted in and there was over 40 hours worth of work in this vessel.
[00:10:30] Jacob Butler: And it’s something that was rare. And so I said, well, I want $1,200 for this. And he got kind of upset with me, and he’s more of the bread and butter selling a bunch of things to to make his living. And so he said, well, you’re not gonna make more than 60 bucks on it. Pay me half. And then whatever you make on it, you can, but you’re probably gonna go home with it.
[00:10:48] Jacob Butler: And he was really upset. And so I said, all right, cool. And so I put it out and before the market even started, a gentleman came up me, he said, this is very rare. What is this? And I was explaining to him, you know, the process. And I kept in mind not to downplay my work. And And I told him, you know, this is how it does how it’s done.
[00:11:06] Jacob Butler: This is , these are, how many people still practice this? This is the history of it. And he said, well, how much are you asking? And so I only wanted 1200. So I told him 1500. And he said, well, I have 1100 right now cash, and I’ll pay it . He said, man, you can leave it at your booth and I’ll come back for it later.
[00:11:23] Jacob Butler: And my friend’s eyes is like, I’m like, just got so big. And his jaw dropped to the floor. And and I mean, to me that kind of just like, cemented or solidified everything that guy had told me the time before. And if you find value in yourself, others will see that as well.
[00:11:38] Jacob Butler: And that doesn’t just correlate to sales. It’s valuing your words. And knowing what you’re speaking is truth and when you’re presenting or sharing information to other people or educating them in, whether it be the field or in life or in the arts. If you don’t believe in yourself, they’re not going to.
[00:11:55] he is a very successful artist, native American. And when he started out, and I know him quite well, it’s very genuine. he would tell potential buyers perhaps.
[00:12:07] Siebe Van Der Zee: Where his artwork was not so wonderful and special, and he downplayed it. Humility, you know, being fair and at the same time. He realized very quickly that you have to show your worth and as an artist, and that’s what I thought was interesting. And by the way, this lesson is also, mentioned by other guests.
[00:12:28] for example, Dr. Banton referred to that as well, but as an artist and that what I thought was an interesting comparison. It’s not just the time that you spend on creating artwork. he referred to the hours of research that he does before he creates something. And of course, his creativity, that’s not something that you can simply learn.
[00:12:49] Siebe Van Der Zee: You have that. you built that over time. And, he uses that as well. So that is a, an important lesson. and then finally, I want to add another lesson, also from Jacob Butler. address issues with solutions, not complaints. And his story is very powerful. things that he had to endure, but most importantly, the lessons he learned from that and how it changed him as a person to give back to his family and his community.
[00:13:19] Siebe Van Der Zee: So that’s where I wanna start with.
[00:13:22] Jeffery Wang: Thank you. And, Robert, what are your top lessons?
[00:13:25] Robert Hossary: Oh, come on man. we’ve got a hundred episodes under our belt. We’ve got thousands of or thousand lessons. It’s very hard to pick it, even though this was our homework and I did do it. I agree with all of Siebe’s.
[00:13:37] I think they’re, very powerful and he stole a couple of mines. I’m gonna have to change mine now on the go, but,I wanna point out the Ori Eisen episode and his second lesson really resonated with me. You know, the hardest thing to do is to do, and you have to think about that, and that, that was just brilliant when he said it, I just sat back. Yeah, it is.
[00:14:02] Ori Eisen: How many of us said, I want to lose weight? I want to go to the gym. I want to treat my kids better. I want to have time for myself. How many of us thought about these things and said these things? It’s so much difficult to do it. So if you ever wanted to write a book, write a podcast, write a blog, go volunteer the hardest thing is to one day, put it on your calendar and do it like start after you start it’s easy, but just keep thinking about it will never get you anywhere. So the hardest thing to do is to do.
[00:14:35] Siebe Van Der Zee: Is that something that you have done your whole life or was that also something that you learned over time?.
[00:14:42] Ori Eisen: I’ve learned over time that when I looked at my notebook of all the things I ever wanted to do and my calendar of what did I actually spend my time doing that dissonance told me that if it’s not set for a date in an hour, it will be in my wishlist all my life.
[00:14:59] Ori Eisen: So I’m winking at you and at the audience to say, you want to go volunteer, put it on your calendar, just like the meeting with your boss and the meeting with your customer. Put it that Saturday at 11:00 AM that says, go do that thing. Like block the time. Then you’ll see that you’ll start doing your dreams and living your dreams as opposed to just dreaming them.
[00:15:19] Robert Hossary: So, I mean, Ori was very good. All these lessons were good, but that one is great.
[00:15:23] Jeffery Wang: are you saying that Nike was onto something with the Swish logo? Just do it ?
[00:15:28] Robert Hossary: Well, yeah, but they did it. You see, and that’s his whole point. You the hardest thing to do is to do,
[00:15:34] Jeffery Wang: should have been just did it then.
[00:15:35] Robert Hossary: Just did it. Yeah. when I looked at, one of. All time favorites, which, you know, regular listeners will hear me talk about when I interview, some guests is, Andrew Tyndale’s, this Too Shall Pass. , because that’s a truism. Everything will pass. So, love that. I think it’s so insightful and powerful as a lesson.
[00:15:58] it is just wonderful. There’s a couple of others that, that I liked. one is from you, Jeff. and it’s again true, but you have to think about it, is nobody’s thinking of you . Nobody’s thinking of you. They’ve got their own shit to deal with. They’re not thinking of you. So don’t take things personally, but let me just expand on one particular lesson that was brought up by two different guests.
[00:16:22] Robert Hossary: The first one who brought it up was, Vikas Tiku and he mentioned, I think it was his very first lesson, and it was mentioned by a guest Diana interviewed later on, Brett Gill Gillliland.
[00:16:38] Diana White: Gillliland, yes.
[00:16:38] Diana White: Brett
[00:16:38] Robert Hossary: Gillliland. .
[00:16:39] Robert Hossary: So Brett also mentioned the same thing, which is what brought you here won’t get you there.
[00:16:45] Vikas Tiku: Yes. Yes. You know, you know, I tried to play, put some interesting play on words in some of these lessons just to make them more interesting. But really what I mean by that is and again, this is based on my own personal experience but I suspect a lot of people in the audience would probably identify with it.
[00:17:00] Vikas Tiku: everybody has multiple inflection points in their life and their careers some more than others depending on how active a life that you’ve led. In my personal case, I’ve always found that when I reached that inflection point and I reflected on what were my goals for the future, what did I want to do for the next stage, I realized that almost invariably I realized that the skillset that had got me to that stage of my life, that stage of my career, whatever it was, While it was still important for me to carry that forward, it was no longer sufficient to allow me to get to my next level of performance or next level of achievement.
[00:17:34] Vikas Tiku: And I don’t mean just in monetary terms, in just any terms that I had established for myself. So the ability to reinvent yourself or in part, or in whole at multiple times during your life is quite important for sustained success, both mental and financial wellbeing over your career. Too many people get stuck doing the same thing over and over again, and eventually it becomes very boring.
[00:17:56] Vikas Tiku: So the ability at appropriate times in your life to reach that inflection point, reassess and reset your goals, and then reset learning goals as well so that you acquire some new dimension to your. A skillset is quite important for long-term sustained growth in my mind.
[00:18:12] Brett Gilliland: So I’m about to give you two years of master’s program in one statement. Okay. And here it is, all organizations are perfectly designed to get the results they get. That’s from a guy named Arthur Jones. He said it that way. many others have said other versions of it, but it’s basically you get what you get because you put in what you put in.
[00:18:32] Brett Gilliland: The thing that we built is what gives us today’s result. And if we want to go to tomorrow’s results, something better, something bigger then we have to change. We’ve got to keep learning. We got to keep growing. And so there are these stages in small businesses on the ones and threes of revenue turns out there’s a pattern to it.
[00:18:53] Brett Gilliland: And so when you grow your business from 30,000 to a hundred thousand in annual revenue, you go from side hustle to now fully self-employed, that’s a stage change. And there’s new stuff that you have to figure out. If you want to go from a hundred thousand to 300,000, that new stuff is how to sell more.
[00:19:13] Brett Gilliland: And from 300,000 to a million, there’s a new thing. And you have to figure out how to get consistent lead generation and how to fulfill on your product or service consistently. That’s a new thing. And once you do it, you create the steady operation and you hit the million dollar mark, and there’s a new stage change.
[00:19:30] Brett Gilliland: And from the one to three and the three to 10 and 10 to 30, it just keeps happening. unfortunately it doesn’t naturally happen. Like you have to work to keep going. But yeah, there’s these natural, this is kind of phenomenon. Every time you triple in size, you max out what the current thing can do.
[00:19:48] Brett Gilliland: And you’ve got to learn something new. If you want to keep growing. And that’s a constant theme throughout a lot of our guests, which is never stop learning. To put it bluntly, your skillset will only take you so far. If you are self-aware enough to understand that and to develop the skillset you need to take you further. That’s going to get you far in life.
[00:20:11] Robert Hossary: So what brought you here won’t get you there, is such a powerful thing to understand. Yeah. And I think it’s born out of self-awareness. If you’re not self-aware, you’re not gonna get this lesson. So they’re the ones that, that really resonated with me.
[00:20:29] Jeffery Wang: Yeah. and to that point about, that lesson that was brought up by both Vikas and Brett, what’s interesting also is that we’re seeing constant themes, you know, of the same lessons being told in different ways.
[00:20:40] Jeffery Wang: And one of my favorite ways of telling that particular lesson was from David Redhill. and the way he told that lesson was, be a child over and over. Yeah. So indeed it’s the same lesson that we are learning Yes. But in told, in different stories, through different stories, different experiences, and yet what we are learning, seeing all these different people tell the same, basically tell us the same lesson, but in completely different ways Yeah.
[00:21:05] Jeffery Wang: Is is very reassuring.
[00:21:07] Jeffery Wang: Next up we have, Diana, what are, I know you, you’ve been relatively new to this project, but by all means,you have interviewed so many guests in the, just such a short timeframe. What are your favorite lessons?
[00:21:21] Diana White: Mine, Jeff. Mine, . No, I’m just kidding.
[00:21:27] Robert Hossary: No, that’s why we love you, Diana .
[00:21:30] Diana White: No, I actually have,three, and one that I really wanna highlight. So I’ll go from, you know, Highlighting from just the lessons to highlighting, Siebe your episode. lesson number three, where you talked about be who you are, don’t try to be a different person to impress someone else.
[00:21:49] Siebe Van Der Zee: I learned a lot from my old boss in executive search. , his first name was Chuck and, He was a very good man and very, very, , genuine. And, , at the same time, his language was very direct.
[00:22:03] Siebe Van Der Zee: And, , he showed me when I started working there over 20 years ago, a little cartoon and it’s a little cynical. So I want to be careful when I say it like this in a podcast, but it showed a, , veteran recruiter talking to a rookie recruiter. And the idea was that the veterans said it’s real simple.
[00:22:23] Siebe Van Der Zee: You have clients and you have candidates. They’re both liars. Now again, I don’t go life like that, please. I don’t write by being so cynical, but there is something to say as a recruiter in particular, I want to make that clear. It’s not for every role that we need to have a certain level of suspicion when it comes to our candidates.
[00:22:46] Siebe Van Der Zee: And when it comes to our clients, not to say that they’re liars, that takes it too far, but it has to fit their needs and their strategy, et cetera, on both sides for recruiters. , we are kind of in the middle of the playing field. We have to accept the fact that that is happening. We cannot change that.
[00:23:06] Siebe Van Der Zee: We just have to be aware. And I remember again, , my previous boss who with a very quiet voice would say, that’s not going to happen. , we keep an eye out on that whole process and if something goes wrong, As a recruiter, I take responsibility, not the candidate that perhaps at the last moment, when somewhere else we have to smoke that out.
[00:23:28] Siebe Van Der Zee: And, , sometimes you just have to expect that a person is not telling the whole story. What can I say? It doesn’t mean they’re blatant liars or bad people. They may not get you the whole story. And it happens quite a bit.
[00:23:40] Robert Hossary: Okay. So in the recruiting world, I get it. And I understand why the theater would happen, in a job interview.
[00:23:47] Robert Hossary: But how does this point work in real life? Outside of the recruiting field.
[00:23:54] Siebe Van Der Zee: That’s a fair question. , I think we all have to accept, of course, that we are who we are. That’s not going to change. We are the individuals that we are and can I apply a Dutch saying, and I’ll mention it in English, just act normal because you’re crazy enough.
[00:24:12] Siebe Van Der Zee: And so if you think you’re going to be perfect and you think this come on, And I think that is part of, of course be who you are and try not to impress someone, , et cetera, et cetera.
[00:24:24] Siebe Van Der Zee: , I think that’s in life. It’s not just in hiring for a job in life. Accept who you are, you can improve, you can go all kinds of directions. I’m not saying that you’re stuck in that, but if you make yourself look more grandiose than what you really are, it’ll it’ll come through. It’ll show that’s the point it’ll show.
[00:24:43] Diana White: That resonated with me so much, because it’s, you know, I spent the majority of my formative professional years trying to be what I thought my bosses wanted me to be, customers wanted me to be. And it wasn’t until I figured out who my crazy, authentic self was that I actually started to get more engagement and more positive feedback.
[00:25:07] Diana White: and I love one thing that you said, which was, accept who you are and just act normal because your crazy is crazy enough. And I loved that. I love that. And then the next one is, Peter Thornhill, his number one lesson, which was, you can succeed despite your education.
[00:25:26] I failed my last year at high school, so I finished high school in 1964. I failed my last year or my grades in all the subjects were below the class average. I left school and, um, it was a bit of a loose end. Anyway, my father got me a job as a sewing machine mechanic in a factory where they embroidered sheets and pillowcases.
[00:25:52] Peter Thornhill: So I was an apprentice, sewing machine mechanic. I lasted there for probably six or seven months and decided I could cross that off my bucket list
[00:26:02] Peter Thornhill: when I answered a newspaper advertisement. So I ended up getting as a job as a Clarke with an insurance company. One of the leading insurance companies here in Australia, and the progress from there met married changed jobs briefly to work for a general motors dealership car dealership to make. I doubled my income from $2,500 a year to $4,200 a year saved up, took off on the working holiday.
[00:26:31] Peter Thornhill: I got a job in London as a clerk With the insurance company I’d worked for in Australia then went to an employment agency, got a job with, the merchant bank, Antony Gibbs & Sons in London as a clerk. And that was the last time in 1972 that I have ever applied for a job. Every other job has come looking for me.
[00:27:00] Duff Watkins: So about the education. so you transcended your, limited education, I guess is what I’m hearing.
[00:27:05] Peter Thornhill: Yeah. So I actually, when I started work, I went back to night school and I ended up polishing off another three subjects. so I got the qualification and that was basically it never set foot in the university but took off and worked hard. And as I say, a clerk worked hard got headhunted to go to another company, got headhunted to go to another company, got head hunted to change jobs, got headhunted to move to Sydney. Etc and it just went on and on and on.
[00:27:38] Diana White: And, that resonated with me as well because as the team knows that, but our viewers and listeners might not know I didn’t get my degree until later on in life and for a very long time.
[00:27:50] Diana White: That was an emotional hindrance for me because I thought I didn’t have what it took to bring to the table because I didn’t have that quote unquote piece of paper. So, Peter Thornhill, take or philosophy on what that piece of paper means or what you can do with your life with or without it, that really resonated with me.
[00:28:09] but the highlight, had to be for me. Brad Casper, number six, leadership is not a title.
[00:28:15] Brad Casper: I think and this is really targeting some of the younger people in the podcast community who might be starting their career. But regardless of whether you’re starting or starting with a new company or starting over leadership is such a powerful tool and to have in your toolbox, and I honestly believe it is something that is very much learned. Even if you are at the bottom of the org chart, there are opportunities to demonstrate a leadership position or a leadership mindset.
[00:28:47] Brad Casper: And I think it was P&G who really kind of put that model in my head that you can lead from anywhere at any time. You don’t have to be at the top of the org chart. And I would just encourage our listeners to think about that somewhere today, no matter which company they’re in, they can demonstrate a leadership mindset.
[00:29:09] Brad Casper: That maybe is unexpected or, but it won’t be unwelcomed. And I just wanted to make sure I shared that lesson with everyone. I would say that assuming that someone wants to accelerate their career and again, depending it almost is independent of which industry or sector you’re in if you demonstrate leadership, there’s gonna be an excellent opportunity for you to advance your career and grow. Yes. Conversely, if you don’t demonstrate leadership it’s very hard to get, not only promoted, but to certainly you know, galvanize an entire team behind you. So leadership to me is the most important single attribute along with integrity.
[00:29:52] and. all three of these lessons kind of go together, but that one brought it full circle because throughout my entire professional career in one shape or another, I have been looked at to lead.
[00:30:05] Diana White: And not because I asked for it, it’s just I guess my cologne. I don’t know what it is. Right. but I often passed up those opportunities and didn’t speak up and lead because I felt, again, who would listen to me. Don’t have that piece of paper, who would listen to me? I’m a one trick pony. I only know retail.
[00:30:26] Diana White: And so that was very enlightening to me that. What I thought to be true. Why are, why is everybody looking at me for the answer? I’m just sitting here trying to eat a bagel. What’s going on? That it was because there, are certain qualities that you may have about you that just are leadership qualities, and it has nothing to do with education or title.
[00:30:45] Diana White: You’re just seen as a leader, and so that resonated with me. So those are my three.
[00:30:50] Jeffery Wang: Yeah. And totally agree with those. I, you know, like you, I wish I knew Siebe earlier on in my career because I can certainly have done with a lot of his advice.
[00:31:00] Robert Hossary: This is very true. Siebe, you are very well respected in the 10 lessons family.
[00:31:06] Siebe Van Der Zee: Well, that, that is so kind. But, kind of scary because I’m not the wisest person on this podcast, but. I’ll, I’ll take it. I think,and talking again to our guests and the lessons we learn. We’re talking about people all over the world and they all have experiences and lessons that they learn.
[00:31:24] Siebe Van Der Zee: And yet through our podcast, we see, certain. Wisdoms of course, but also similarity. There, there is a message in there and that is something now that we are at the 100th episode, that we can look at that and say there is a certain consistency. and yes, there’s more to be done. We’re not done with our mission.
[00:31:44] Siebe Van Der Zee: But, it is very nice to see that. And look, we can all learn from each other. Let there be no doubt.
[00:31:49] Jeffery Wang: Indeed Siebe. And that just reminds me of another lesson from Dillip Jest. If you think you’re wise, you’re probably not, .
[00:31:55] Siebe Van Der Zee: Exactly. Exactly.
[00:31:56] so we’ll never stop learning. So over to my favorite, team member who, we’ve never got to see on camera.
[00:32:06] Jeffery Wang: Yi I know.
[00:32:07] Robert Hossary: Hang. No, before you go to Yi, I take objection to that. Your favorite team member. what are the rest of us Ham sandwiches. That’s not, no,
[00:32:14] Jeffery Wang: but you’re on camera .
[00:32:16] Diana White: Hey. Hey. I’m gonna step in and say that Yi is actually our favorite team member because viewers and listeners, when you see.
[00:32:25] Diana White: Social media and you see us posting and you see, all of the different tiles and topics and great nuggets of wisdom on social media. That is Mr. Wang right there.
[00:32:37] Robert Hossary: Absolutely.
[00:32:38] thank you very much.
[00:32:39] Diana White: We wouldn’t be where we are without this man, so you are the favorite.
[00:32:43] But we love you, Robert. We love you.
[00:32:44] I will second that. Yi’s. efforts have helped us reach our hundredth episode,and without Yi working tirelessly in the background, getting us known, getting us out there, We would still probably be at a hundredth episode, but nowhere near with as many listeners and viewers as we have today.
[00:33:02] Jeffery Wang: Absolutely. So thank you, you,
[00:33:03] Yi Wang: that’s very humbling to hear all of that guys. look, I think, you know, certainly it’s great to be in front of the camera for a change. you know, the work we do. Really resembles teamwork, right? we are scattered around the world. you know, I am very fortunate to be working with you guys and to be part of this really amazing project.
[00:33:21] and I think that sort of, you know, really leads to my first, lesson that I felt really strongly about. That is, Ori Eisen’s, lesson number one. that is you can do anything if you don’t care who gets the credit.
[00:33:32] You can do anything you want as long as you don’t care who gets the credit. If I want to give soccer balls to kids all over the world, I can’t go and do it myself physically.
[00:33:41] Ori Eisen: I can’t. So I can either choose to, I want the credit for giving it to them, or I’m going to allow other people to get the credit for doing it. So the things get done, but it’s not about me anymore. I’ve learned this lesson from Colin Powell and when I heard the words for the first time. I, honestly didn’t really understand what they mean, but every year, since then I’ve taken this lesson to heart.
[00:34:04] Ori Eisen: I can now do anything. And you as a listener can do anything as long as you don’t put yourself in the center. It’s that simple.
[00:34:11] If the motivation is to get credit, you can do some things, but they will be limited. But the lesson is you can do anything. If you don’t care who gets the credit. So it’s all about the choice. Do you want just to get credit for the things you are able to do, and you can keep doing that, but if you want to do bigger grander things, you can, as long as you don’t insist that you get the credit for every single thing.
[00:34:34] Yi Wang: And I think that speaks volume of what do we do as a team. you know, I, I don’t know how, but we just somehow get together every week, boots strapping with what we have, and keep going.
[00:34:44] Yi Wang: And I think. That itself is really needs to be commended for. And I think a lot of, those efforts don’t really get, you know, seen from our listeners, from our followers. and then it sort of leads to my second lesson. you know, and I’ve been reflecting this a lot and I think it is a common theme, coming out of lots of the lessons that we have is about self-awareness, is about introspection. and it’s also about understanding, you know, what is the value that we hold dear.
[00:35:12] Yi Wang: And I think one thing that is bonding us together as part of this team is that we have this really strong common shared beliefs and values.
[00:35:21] Yi Wang: Right, and it is in our mission statement. you know, we talk about this pretty much every week. I think knowing those values and knowing what they are is really important. and I think there’s no other lesson better summarizing that than David Redhill’s Lesson number two, your values are your best guide.
[00:35:37] David Redhill: Yeah, well, that was a political situation. I got myself into as a result of being the editor of the journalism review. I was offered a job in a, potential cadetship in a large news corporation. One of Australia’s biggest privately owned businesses. And I won’t go into the details of who was involved or the, or the owners, but, at that time, the ABC that our national broadcaster was cash strapped and the suggestion being made by this news organization was that they provide their own, journalists around the world, their, their stringers as a sort of a syndicated provider to the ABC.
[00:36:15] David Redhill: And I felt very passionately as a journalist that, The ABC should retain its independence. And it shouldn’t be once it started taking news reports from, private company journalists. There was a conflict of interest. So, at the same time as applying for this job and in conversations with this news organization, I wrote a feature article in the journalism review, condemning this, challenging this, this notion that this same news organizations should be offering this, route.
[00:36:45] David Redhill: And of course, if it costs me the opportunity to get a job with the organization in question, so it was pretty naive in one respect to sort of, write an, an article attacking the organization. I was applying for a job at.
[00:36:57] David Redhill: But Jeffrey, it really didn’t sit right with me. As a matter of fact, I didn’t get that job, but another better door opened up for me. And in fact, I took a job in a hardware company, one of the first large computer companies and organization in Australia. I learned all about technology in the birth of the digital age.
[00:37:16] David Redhill: From the ground up, it didn’t hold me back as a journalist. It was the best, first opportunity first job I could have had. And I never looked back. I never regretted that. So my, my learning again was, if it doesn’t feel good or sit right with you, then don’t compromise your principles or, cut corners to get ahead.
[00:37:36] David Redhill: You know how hard work and integrity in that work will get you where you’re meant to go. And you’ll be able to sleep at night and you’ll be able to live with it. So that was, that was a, you know, a profound learning. It was one of those sliding doors moments, Jeffrey I could have gone that way and I elected not to, and I went in a very different direction that I’ve never regretted.
[00:37:56] and you know, that itself is, you know, is really important to me. and more specifically, if you think about it, we heard Sheriff Penzone talk about respect. Yeah. You know, Rob, you talk about respect yourself. Diana, you mentioned Peter Thornhill. He talked about the cando attitude.
[00:38:13] Yi Wang: That is a great value to have. Siebe but you talked about, you know, integrity a lot. Right. Ligia McLean, as I remember, she talked about, you know, being resilient. The, these are the just some examples of fantastic values that we all feel, you know, resonating and we upholding them, ourselves. And at least to sort of the standout lesson for me,is Dr. Belle Liang and Mr. Tim Klein’s, lesson number four. which is add value as a trailblazer, or builder or champion or guardian.
[00:38:46] Tim Klein: Yeah. And ju just to dive deeper, cause I think you gave a great example, those entrepreneurs that you’re working with they’re individualistic, right?
[00:38:53] Tim Klein: Cuz they want to go out and do their own thing and they’re growth oriented at the same time. Right. They, they want to change it. And that’s what we call trailblazers where trailblazers are people who are, want to go their own way, blaze their own path. And they want to create new things outside of existing systems and they don’t wanna be told what to do.
[00:39:12] Tim Klein: They don’t wanna be beholden to structures. They don’t wanna agree with. Right. And so. Those, those are trailblazers. And then, um, what we found is that when you start a new entrepreneurial idea, at some point, that idea needs to be codified and you need to start creating systems and processes. And what that happens is that you need to go find what we call builders and builders are people who are growth oriented.
[00:39:37] Tim Klein: They think change is a good thing, but they’re collectivists at the same time where they, so they come in and they’re like, you know what? We need to start creating systems and processes because we care about every single person in this organization. And we want it to work better for everyone. So we’re gonna come in and build these systems.
[00:39:54] Tim Klein: And then what happens is that when you build these systems, you’re like, okay, we have product market fit. The wheel is turning. We need to pour gasoline on the fire here and really go then what you actually need. You need what we call champions and champions are individualistic and they’re stability oriented.
[00:40:12] Tim Klein: They actually like, they want to go out in individual achievement recognition is what they want, but they want stability what they want to know, how the rules work so that they can optimize their own performance based on it. And they don’t wanna change the game at all. Because if you change how systems work that might interfere with their own individual perform.
[00:40:30] Tim Klein: And then the final thing you need is what we call guardians who are stability, oriented and collectivists. And these are the people who wanna protect, uh, and preserve. What’s tried and true. And these are the people who like they wanna protect what makes that organization special in the first place. And so what’s interesting, it’s knowing what your own individual value archetypes are, but then it’s like a really, really high functioning organization has an equitable mix of all four of those value archetypes.
[00:40:58] Tim Klein: Absolutely. Right. And so, but it’s just being able to explicitly say that and then make sure, and then it’s just where do all the pieces fit there. So…
[00:41:07] Diana White: Good point, Belle, you have anything to add to that?
[00:41:10] Belle Liang: Just the, the fit between, uh, well, I like to put it as the way in which an individual can feel a. Cultural value, add to an organization is very important.
[00:41:22] Belle Liang: And so this chapter is about not only identifying your own as a, as a worker, as an employee, as a manager, as a leader, your value archetype, but it’s organizations identifying their value archetype or a departments identifying their value archetypes so they can, um, have a clear sense of what is going on in the dynamic when.
[00:41:48] Belle Liang: They might be in a guardian stage of the organization, or they may be, you know, just guardian focused, you know, really preserving what is tried and true. And they’re feeling irritated by the trailblazers who are amongst them trying to push the envelope. Um, so recognizing that, oh, like these people are not trying to make me miserable.
[00:42:08] Belle Liang: They are living their archetype and bringing to our organization exactly what we need to balance our guardian archetype. So we think it’s just so important for people to recognize what, individuals are bringing into their organization rather than be threatened by the differences.
[00:42:25] I really enjoyed that lesson because it’s one of those frameworks that these guys came up with based on their research, but connected the values, personas, and to actions, right?
[00:42:36] Yi Wang: So that they’ve got this nicely drawn, value continuum, if you like, where everybody can be placed onto that continuum. and really understand why someone would be saying something or doing something, you know, why they make decisions the way that they did. Why sometimes they do one thing, that is in contrary to what they say, for example.
[00:42:57] Yi Wang: Right? And I think, from a people leader perspective has certainly helped me a lot, in being cognizant about putting together a team that is balanced, you know, harnessing the differences so then we can have a collective strength to deal with the challenges that we have.
[00:43:10] very well said Yi.
[00:43:12] Jeffery Wang: And I’d just like to acknowledge you also as our number one fan. it’s . It’s pretty clear that out of all of us, you are the person that has the most intimate knowledge of all the lessons.
[00:43:23] Yi Wang: I do listen to all of them as much as I can.
[00:43:27] Jeffery Wang: Yeah. and the passion in the content truly shows. So thank you very much, Yi.
[00:43:31] Jeffery Wang: I, I, really appreciate, that, that insight into those lessons.
[00:43:35] Jeffery Wang: Now, when I was asked what were my top lessons,for in preparation with this discussion, It was a very difficult choice because there’s so many I agree with. but then I thought I’d have a bit of fun with it.
[00:43:45] I went for lessons that I felt that I needed to do more like as in lessons that I could take away and practice. So a highlight for me, actually started very early on in this journey. Andre Alphonso, that’s the number three Banish psychic vampires.
[00:44:00] Andre Alphonso: I used to work with the guy, about 15 years ago and he used to, we used to run workshops. I used to run a training company and he often come back and go, ah, I said, how was the, how was the workshop Garrett?
[00:44:10] Andre Alphonso: He goes, that was fantastic, except for a couple of psychic vampires in the room. And, and you know, you know what I mean? It says if those of you who’ve been in a classroom would know exactly what that is. It’s those people that kind of suck the energy out. They’re negative. They’re, they’re not they’re mismatches.
[00:44:26] Andre Alphonso: They don’t want to be there. They’re cynical. So those are the psychic vampires and I’ve realized as a, you know, as I’ve gone through life, that I’ve kind of let a lot of them into my life. Uh, and I find that, you know, they used to suck the energy out of me so many ways. And again, this is probably one of the hardest things I’ve had to do, which is about making sure I limit or banish, those relationships that, and it could be from clients.
[00:45:03] Andre Alphonso: It could be from colleagues. It could be for people that work for you, it could be friends and it could even be family members at some stage. I’m not immediate family, but usually extended family members. Right. Where you just feel this, this energy, you know, they leave and you go, I just want to shoot myself.
[00:45:23] Andre Alphonso: Like no, and life is too short. I don’t want that in my life. I don’t want people, you know, taking, making me as, so, you know, your personal solar system at one hand brings out the very best in you. Psychic vampires actually bring out the very worst in you. And I think banish them get rid of them, move them out.
[00:45:45] Andre Alphonso: Um, you know, there’s that my boss once said to me as a guys to work with a long time ago, worked for me. And he was just one of those, you know, he’d show up late for meetings. Uh, if you were sitting there, he’d be looking at the newspaper and, uh, in our sales meetings, he’d be, mismatching everything.
[00:46:03] Andre Alphonso: If you say blue, they would say gray. you know, everything was cynical. That’s not gonna. Kind of approach and it was just bringing everyone down and eventually he had to go. And I remember going to my boss at the time and saying, look, here’s the situation. This is the guy he’s bringing the whole team down.
[00:46:19] Andre Alphonso: and you know, we just not being able to hit our straps. And I remember what he said to me. He said, he said, Andre, no breath is better than bad breath. Yeah. And I think that’s kind of that phrase has stuck in my head for some reason, for a long time. And I think that’s it banished, psychic vampires. Get them out of your life.
[00:46:38] Jeffery Wang: Oh, yeah. so psychic vampires are sort of a negative.
[00:46:41] the people sucked their energy outta the room and yeah, just negatively all around. And unfortunately, I recognized upon some reflection, they probably kept a few,psychic vampires around. So, Not practicing. It was difficult, but it was definitely something that I appreciated, learning.
[00:46:57] Jeffery Wang: Now, another lesson I had a lot of fun with was with, Mr. Jim Carroll, lesson number nine. beware of the noisy self of Absorb Few . Yeah. so the context of a lesson is that there are people who,who tend to get an outsize amount of attention, but they shouldn’t be occupying as much as they, they should.
[00:47:15] Jeffery Wang: And I think it takes courage to. Ignore or, shut down those people who are very, very loud. And that’s certainly something I can’t say I’m there, but it’s something I’m practicing in my life to make sure that I, you know, make space for those people that we should make space for.
[00:47:31] Jeffery Wang: But the highlight for me, was, Andrew Tyndale lesson number three. The wise man builds his house on the rock and not sand.
[00:47:38] Andrew Tyndale: As you become more intentional in your imaginations, and in your planning and in your playing a long game. This is about investing in yourself. It’s about investing in your character and the true foundations of your life, not investing in your profile or your CV or your number of followers or the level of influence that you have. It’s not about that. All those things are transitory.
[00:48:06] Andrew Tyndale: The only thing that’s permanent for you is that character that you build in yourself. So I encourage you to invest in character, not in personality, not in profile.
[00:48:19] Andrew Tyndale: So when I say character, I mean building the value set that you know is going to be important to seeing you through. And that can be everything from integrity to resilience, to honesty, to innovation, all the values that you believe are important for you, treating people well, those kinds of things.
[00:48:42] Andrew Tyndale: That inner investment and the disciplines that you build around that are what is going to set you up for future success. In 10 years, nobody’s even going to remember what LinkedIn is, much less, how many followers you had. That is not what you invest in. And it’s not about the fashion that you wear, or the products that you use.
[00:49:04] Andrew Tyndale: This is about who you are becoming as a person. if you’re building a house, for example, build the foundation. Don’t build a nice paint work. Don’t invest in painting over cracks, strip it away, strip it right down to the foundation and make sure the foundation is built on rock, before you start building up everything else.
[00:49:26] Andrew Tyndale: I guarantee that you’re going to go through good times and I guarantee that you’re going to go through hard times, and probably multiple times.
[00:49:33] Andrew Tyndale: In that last exercise, the Campbell exercise, you’re likely to have a working life of 60 to 80 years. Well, that’s six or eight careers of 10 years each. So what you want to do is you want to build the foundations of your skills and of your character, and when the bad things happen, which they will, what will stand the test of time is your character, what won’t stand the test of time is all the superfluous stuff, all the temporary things, the fluffy things that you thought were important, like the fancy car you drove or the clothes that you wore, or your holidays you took, that’s garbage. That will be washed away in a storm. If you build your house on the rock, it’ll survive, whatever comes your way.
[00:50:20] Jeffery Wang: And that sounds pretty profound, but what it’s talking about is, pursuing character rather than, something more flimsy like reputation or fame or other things. and so that was a profound lesson for me, precisely because, I recognize in my own life I was pursuing the wrong things for probably a bit too long. And not the difficult things that will ultimately define who I am. And so that’s something, again, another work in progress, but it had a real profound impact in understanding what, was ultimately more important. So these are the lessons that I took the most out of. And, you know, I’m hoping if you haven’t listened to them, please go and check them out.
[00:50:56] Jeffery Wang: So now, the fun part of
[00:50:58] Robert Hossary: today, well, hang on a second, Jeff, just on that, on what you’ve just said, the one thing that, you brought up in your interview, which demonstrates your belief in what you’ve just said was that you said, don’t chase happiness, chase fulfillment. And I think there’s a subtle difference, but building your house on the rock, as opposed to the sand Is fulfillment is helping you find that fulfillment.I mean it’s the same, um, metaphor that goes for business strategies as well. But let’s put that aside. If we’re talking existential now, definitely following fulfillment, and this is what I learned also from you because I’d never actually thought of it that way.
[00:51:42] Robert Hossary: And I, I see what you’re saying and I just want to, to point that out, that you are living. What you are saying, you’re actually a man of action and not just a man of words.
[00:51:53] Jeffery Wang: Oh, thank you, Rob. And, uh, . I, I could, I could clearly say that I plagiarize that from Andrew and, Dr. Jordan Peterson. I did mention that in the interview, but thank you for pointing it out, Rob.
[00:52:03] Affiliate Break
[00:52:03] Robert Hossary: We’ll take a little break now and, we’d like to thank our affiliate partner Audible. Audible is an amazing way to consume 10 lessons learned and other content like books and other podcasts, allowing you to build a library of knowledge all in one place. You can start your free yes, I said free 30 day trial, by going to audibletrial.com/10lessonslearned. With Audible, you can find your favorite lessons while at home or on the go. Once again, that’s audibletrial.com/10lessonslearned for your free 30 day trial, the link we’ll put in the show notes back to you, Jeff.
[00:52:48] Jeffery Wang: Thank you.
[00:52:49] What did we disagree with?
[00:52:49] Jeffery Wang: But as I was alluding to before , the fun part of today, was there any lessons the thousand or so lessons that we’ve had that didn’t work for you. You know, so lessons that you might know, or might hear a lot out there, but through your personal experience, they’re just not, it’s just not quite, useful or, or may, it may be the wrong context.
[00:53:12] I’ll throw it out there. So, Siebe, is there any particular lessons that, you find that you either disagree with or just didn’t?
[00:53:18] you know, it’s interesting because we all realize how difficult it is to select the lessons that we really like because there are multiple. So to find a lesson that perhaps did not work for me, I had, again, I had to look closely and, also, you know me well with respect for our guests.
[00:53:36] Siebe Van Der Zee: It’s not to say I don’t like this. I don’t like this person at all. No, I pick. Guillaume Lucci, lesson number four, you lead by listening. now Guillaume is a highly respected individual. I don’t know him personally, but I think highly of him, a c e o of an infrastructure company. Very successful. but the reason that I specifically took that lesson, you lead by listening.
[00:54:01] Siebe Van Der Zee: Because look, we all realize listening is important. Yes. But what do you do with that information and just listening doesn’t solve much. It will help create clarity in, let’s say, in my head, when I listen to someone, unless I take action, there is nothing that I do with it. Yeah. And I can make some internal changes myself based on what I heard, but I don’t agree with the fact that you do.
[00:54:32] Siebe Van Der Zee: Lead with listening. And that’s the element I picked on that lesson. And I think if I would have the opportunity to talk to, Mr. Lucci, I’m sure we would work that out. but I think it’s important that people realize that listening by itself is not necessarily the solution. And again, in my definition, it doesn’t create.
[00:54:53] Siebe Van Der Zee: Leading the conversation or whatever you are working on. Just listening is not enough.
[00:54:59] Robert Hossary: See, isn’t that interesting? Because I, I heard a different, meaning in that lesson when he spoke. So that’s the beauty of this show. You get out of it. What you get out of it, if it resonates with you, if it doesn’t resonate with you.
[00:55:15] Robert Hossary: Another I, I understand your point, Siebe, but it’s interesting that I didn’t see it that way.
[00:55:22] Yi Wang: Yeah, I think all the lessons have, you know, have a backstory and I think, you know, all our guests took a lot of times in coming up with those 10 lessons and the backstory behind them. So I think the importance, of this conversation is not so much about what do we agree and disagree, it’s about how we interpret those lessons differently.
[00:55:41] Yi Wang: Right. So, so might just dive in and Jeff, if you don’t mind, cuz I, I’ve got a lesson that didn’t quite work with me or, you know, I sort of interpret a different way, that is sort of on the opposite side of what Siebe said. this is lesson number one. Don’t worry about what other people are thinking about you from Ambassador Niels Marquardt.
[00:55:59] you know, in this conversation, Rob, you interviewed him. I, I actually agreed with the notion that people are not thinking about you Right? most of the time, it is absolutely unhealthy to, to have this habit of trying to guess, second guess, you know, over-interpret what other people may think of you.
[00:56:17] perhaps it is not really explicit in this lesson, but how that’s how I, you know, felt was that. I do disagree with the notion that, you know, self-compassion is equal to being totally comfortable with ourselves, right? The whole package, the good, the bad, and the ugly. think that itself.
[00:56:36] Yi Wang: particularly, it’s not helpful for those who are, you know, overly self-critical, for example. you know, one thing I’ve noticed over the last couple months as we emerged out of the pandemic, as we, you know, getting back into more in-person social setting, is that we’ve seen a sort of a new breed of people really focus on their individual needs.
[00:56:55] Yi Wang: You know, they probably got into the habits over the last two years of lockdowns and isolation to really think about themselves and at times really placing themselves ahead of others, you know, the teams, they’re working, the people around them. So, yeah, and, you know, and it’s not just the young, the gen Z, so to say.
[00:57:12] Yi Wang: I see that across the age group. So I think, you know, we are social animals. We live in the social setting, the environment that are we in, and how people think shapes the social norm. what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. So I think one, one and everyone should be observant to all of that. and, yeah, so, so, you know, you can’t have it all the way, you know, for yourself and certainly it’s not right to disregard the considerations that we should naturally extend to other people.
[00:57:40] Jeffery Wang: Yeah, so I actually don’t disagree with that. I think, you know, coming from a collectivist society,you tend to realize that, you know, the, it’s important to take the group into account. However, that particular lesson, I think the context is a little bit missing in that I think the focus there about him, not just reading into, something what’s not there. and it’s about communicating and actually finding out what they really mean. So I think you’re both right in that regard, but I suppose the wording of that lesson might, lead someone to think that it’s, you know, it’s not important to live within the context of the collectivist,values.
[00:58:12] and to fit into a society and try and, you know, do the right thing by the society. So I think it’s important to distinguish, you know, that probably wasn’t what he meant by that lesson. Yeah. but yeah,I take your point. So, so let’s go with Diana. now I think, yeah, this will be interesting.
[00:58:27] what was a lesson that you find, that didn’t work for you?
[00:58:30] so. While there are certain points of this lesson that I do agree with, and I’ll talk about those, I think the, just the actual wording of the lesson itself, for a global audience, I, it didn’t work for me. And that is,respectfully Megumi Miki,I loved the episode.
[00:58:51] Diana White: I thought it was amazing, Jeff. You did such a wonderful job. but her lesson number. I think it was three. racism, sexism, and other marginalizing forces are real. But you can choose not to be a victim to them.
[00:59:05] Diana White: So in a certain sense, I agree with certain things, that she said within that construct.
[00:59:11] Diana White: Right? Which is one of them was, and I love this, hope for the best, prepare for the worst, right? it’s kind of how I lived my life, but, you know, I grew up in, in the Bronx in New York,and. Viewers and listeners, if you’ve not noticed, I am an, a woman of African American descent and sometimes in, in my culture, in my community, choosing not to be a victim or choosing to ignore or have you wanna lead it.
[00:59:43] Diana White: could get you killed. and that’s a very serious thing. And I don’t know that it’s a global thing. I know only from my experiences here in America, but I, it that the way the lesson was worded for me,was particularly, disconcerting. because, because there are sometimes in life where these things cannot.
[01:00:02] Diana White: Be ignored and you don’t have a choice as to whether or not you’re a victim. You are the victim. You are going to be marginalized. Now in the context that she spoke about, you know, in the workplace and knowing that when you walk into a room, If you are a female, they may not expect that you are the one in charge or the you, the, you would be the one that would have the information.
[01:00:24] Diana White: Right. I totally understand that. And that has happened to me on several occasions. but then I’ll also go a little farther and say that we also have these, Very bad labels that we put on different races, that marginalize us in different ways. And so, yeah, we as a team have had conversations about how, you know, how Africans Americans are perceived in the US and, you know, what is the first thought that comes to your mind about their work ethic, about what they bring to society.
[01:00:53] Diana White: And then there’s a different perception for the Asian community in America, right? And so, Having that understanding of saying, Hey, yes, I’m a woman of Asian descent. And, they may not understand that I am leading this project, or I am the owner of this company. but they’re going to, at any event, they’re gonna think, well, maybe I’m good at math.
[01:01:13] Diana White: You know that, that old adage, right. , there’s nothing like that in the African American community, right? There’s not, oh, well maybe she’s good at singing or maybe he’s good at basketball. Right. and I’m being facetious for a reason. Yeah. because there are different labels for different people.
[01:01:30] Diana White: And I just, while in the context of the lesson as she spoke about it, you understood what she meant. That sentence by itself, I think is a little bit misleading, and that’s why it didn’t quite work for.
[01:01:44] Jeffery Wang: And I agree with that. Look, one thing that came to light is that once you have a international audience, you realize that the cultural context is incredibly important to everything we discussed.
[01:01:53] and thanks for bringing that to our attention. Diana. this is actually not the first time we discussed, the context of this lesson. What’s interesting is that even with, that context, we, there’s something that I think we can still take out of that lesson. Oh, yeah. for her is about not giving up.
[01:02:09] Jeffery Wang: It’s about not just, you know, you don’t just stop trying just because you’re in a position of disadvantage, and I think that’s universal to all. and certainly, understanding, the limitations to your perceived biases is incredibly important for you to be able to overcome them. and I think so, so that makes a really useful lesson in that regard.
[01:02:31] Jeffery Wang: So thanks for that contribution, Diana. And, uh,
[01:02:34] Robert Hossary: but isn’t that what we’re all about? That right? You take out of. What we give you, what we bring to you, what you take out of it, and you apply it within your sphere, within your life, within your community, if that’s what you want to do. And that’s exactly what Diana did.
[01:02:55] Robert Hossary: You know, this bit does not work this bit. works.
[01:03:00] Diana White: Right. And even when you were talking about the resilience, Jeff, I chuckled a little bit because I’m like, if anybody can talk about resilience, it’s the African American community. it’s in our d n a, we have to be resilient, but we are in heightened survival mode every single day of our lives.
[01:03:19] Diana White: For how many generations now? Over 400 years. And so, Yes. Robert, you so impactful and I almost, I feel like some lessons that you know, that maybe going forward we should have lessons that don’t necessarily work for us, but a disclaimer, this is why, and it’s still a good lesson. Yeah. And these are the things you can get from it.
[01:03:43] Diana White: But here’s how I see it from my lens.
[01:03:47] Robert Hossary: Well, isn’t that our job as hosts? Aren’t we supposed to do that in front of the guest? I hope I try to do that. I know that Siebe, you’ve done it sometimes . yeah. and it is our job,
[01:03:56] but we do have our blind spots too. Mind you,you know, and through this experience, I’ve, I.
[01:04:01] Jeffery Wang: So we’ll come away wiser for it.
[01:04:03] Robert Hossary: That’s one of Siebe’s lessons, by the way.
[01:04:05] Siebe Van Der Zee: I was gonna say, that’s one of my lessons, but I think this is such a relevant point, Diana, that you’re making, and you also touched on it because you notice the global element and global discussion. Racism is wrong under all circumstances.
[01:04:21] Siebe Van Der Zee: Let there be no doubt. At least that’s my opinion. it doesn’t matter which country. Doesn’t matter what part of the world. But indeed the experience that people have and you know, it has been indeed a lesson and experience for me as a white guy moving to the United States. If I look at the lack of respect for certain races within the United States, It is painful.
[01:04:49] Siebe Van Der Zee: It is painful, and sure, in this country, United States, we can point at the progress that has been made. And yes, we can point at certain areas of course, but it is still an awareness that people have and. I’m aware that the awareness is there and it is pretty amazing. in our podcast, of course, our guests, we are from different parts of the world.
[01:05:13] Siebe Van Der Zee: We talk with guests from all over the world. We talk about topics that impact certain countries, certain cultures more directly than perhaps other countries. I think, again, that is the beauty of our podcast, and that’s why yes, 100, but we’re on our way to 200 and who knows, 300, right? Because there is so much more to learn from our guests and to share with our global audience.
[01:05:37] Siebe Van Der Zee: So, I’m very glad that, Diana, that you brought this up because it’s relevant for all of us. for all of us. that leads to a lesson that I, did not resonate with me. It’s along the same lines as this. So it’s a good segue actually. And it was from Brad Casper.
[01:05:55] Robert Hossary: Now Brad’s great, right? We loved his episode, but Brad said something that just did not fit with me. treat everyone as you wish to be treated. It’s not gonna happen. There are people out there who don’t want to be treated the way I want to be treated. And I think we’ve just touched on that culturally, value wise, a whole range of reasons why you don’t treat or you shouldn’t treat people the way you want to be treated because they’re not you, you are not them.
[01:06:30] Robert Hossary: They’re different from you. a recent guest, Keith Rowe. I had a great anecdote about this as well, but this is the whole point. If you start treating people the way you want to be treated, you are projecting your values onto them, and therefore saying, well, I would like to be treated this way.
[01:06:51] Robert Hossary: Why aren’t you treating me this way? And you are ignoring, or, dismissing their cultural relevance. For that situation. I can give you examples, but I think the point is very clear. So as much as I like Brad and everything, you have to say, this particular lesson just rubbed me up the wrong way.
[01:07:10] Siebe Van Der Zee: yeah, and I don’t think Brad would disagree with you. to be honest, I think it’s showing respect, right? if you expect to be respect, I think that’s what I kind of got out.
[01:07:20] Robert Hossary: And I agree with that.
[01:07:22] Diana White: I, that’s it’s the, it’s the old adage of do unto others, right? , and thatthat is treating another person with the same level of respect and human kindness that you would expect.
[01:07:32] Diana White: But it, I agree with you, Robert. It shouldn’t go as far as treating people the way I wanted to be treated. Because, you know, hey, if I were able to do that and everybody in society that interacted with me, Reciprocated and kind, there would be no lengthy conversations. It would just be, I’m a get to the point kind of person.
[01:07:54] Diana White: Don’t waste my time. And so you’d have a whole bunch of people in the world going around saying, did you do it? Okay, great. See you tomorrow. Bye. Like that’s
[01:08:02] Robert Hossary: not, you know what, there wouldn’t be, that might not be a bad thing. Diana.
[01:08:05] Siebe Van Der Zee: Sounds kinda good. ,
[01:08:06] but I see exactly what you’re saying, but I know it came from a place of that, that do unto others, which is more of a, treating people with human respect, humanity as opposed to treating them the way you want to be interacted with.
[01:08:20] You made an excellent point because I. That proverb is meant to be that love and respect. You know, say, please not, you know, button up your shirt, pull your pants all the way out, don’t have ’em hanging down kind of garbage that people are, are putting into that now.
[01:08:38] , it’s not a matter of, you know, treat, other people the way you want to be treated in society. It is exactly what you’ve both just said, or the three of you have just said. Treat people with love and respect the way you want to receive that love and I think that transcends culture. That transcends everything.
[01:08:59] Diana White: Agreed.
[01:09:00] Jeffery Wang: Yep. And like if we were to have a go at rewriting that lesson, we probably would’ve said, treat everyone the way they want to be treated. Yeah. and it could be, you know, same lesson, but just in a much more universal way. so what leads me. my, the lesson that didn’t quite work for me now, an honorable mention was,Joost (Niki) Luijsterburg, lesson number nine.
[01:09:21] Jeffery Wang: Be a Shit screen. Love it. As much as I love that idea, I just get a feeling that, it might not work out so well for me, .
[01:09:28] Diana White: but go
[01:09:28] GMT20221021-220646_Recording_gvo_1280x720: ahead.
[01:09:28] Jeffery Wang: That, that was just tongue in cheek. but the lesson that I feel like. It doesn’t work for me. as much as I love the person that was being interviewed, Dr. CJ Cornell, lesson number four, he said, if you have to tell me how great you are, you are not. and as much as I love the idea for that to be true, the lived experience and this is the, with a cultural context of an Asian person who’s generally humble living in the West, if you don’t go out and tell everyone about what you’ve done and what you’ve achieved, and you’re most likely going to get ignored. You know, in the western world, self-promotion, it’s just a part of life. It’s just part and parcel of life. If we don’t do that, you’re gonna be at a distinct disadvantage. You know, I, I remember going into an interview.
[01:10:12] Jeffery Wang: And I said, we did this,and just rubbed the interview the wrong way. You know, they want to know what I did and I was just completely uncomfortable claiming credit for something that the team has achieved, even though I knew that without me in that room, we would not have achieved it.
[01:10:26] and that’s really what they were asking for. So, again, not disagreeing with the nature of the lesson. I want it to be true. I just don’t think it is the way the world is in reality. and you know, and unfortunately that’s just a cultural context that we live in.
[01:10:40] Diana White: And,you, Jeff, that’s, you hit the nail on the head.
[01:10:43] Diana White: I think that’s great. But it’s funny because I just did, am. Well, second to recent episode, Ron Higgs kind of said the same thing, which is, you know, if you should not be calling yourself the expert, it’s your peers that, that give you that title. And that’s when you know you’ve made it right. and I think that what CJ was trying to get across in a way is.
[01:11:08] Diana White: If you spend too much time puffing yourself up and talking about what you do, what you’ve done, what you’ve done. How does anybody actually get to see you in action? If you’re so busy promoting yourself, how do we see you actually in action? So give me action and let me see how great you are.
[01:11:30] Diana White: But you are, you’re absolutely right in these larger organizations where you can get lost and you may or may not be a minority, and it may not be in your culture to actually toot your own horn. will you ever get noticed if you. Say these things. , you know, if you just put your head down and do, because unfortunately,in, at least in American society, I can’t speak for Australia a lot of the times.
[01:11:56] Diana White: The squeakiest wheels get the most attention and the people that put their heads down and do the good work, they’re taken for granted because there are no fires there, which is really, it’s supposed to be the opposite really. if you’re trying to build a healthy organization. But I get exactly what you’re saying, and I’ve been in this same situation that you just gave that example of me saying the team and my boss looking at me saying, , but what about you?
[01:12:19] Diana White: What did you do? and I actually say, I remember this so clearly. I said I was here cheering them on, giving them the right direction so that they can do the things that I just told you they did. And that’s my claim to fame and that’s what brings me joy. And Siebe. You, you as a, as an executive recruiter, what are your thoughts on that?
[01:12:41] Siebe Van Der Zee: Well, I mean, there’s a lot. There’s a lot to it. I keep coming back and in, in a recruiting situation again, you know, we’re talking about business environment. if you think about personal life, how you go through life and you think of children or other family members, do we apply the same values as we do in a business environment when we talk to our boss or we talk to colleagues or we’re managing people.
[01:13:09] Siebe Van Der Zee: So there are so many elements to all of the lessons that we talk about, and I think that leaves room for interpretation. And so that’s not a good answer to your specific question, but I would always then say, well, it depends, what are we talking about? But in general, I would say, you know, obviously, Understanding, becoming aware of people, behaviors, situations.
[01:13:37] Siebe Van Der Zee: That is part of the mission that we are all on. And, I think that is something that,will push us to continue in, in our podcast and to find guests. I definitely want to mention as well that we have had. So many guests that after the recording came back to us, right. You know what I’m gonna say?
[01:13:58] Siebe Van Der Zee: And they said, well, thank you for making me think about my lessons. And thank you for making me, or allowing me to share these lessons. And I think that’s another element that,we need to consider, as far as how we actually can help our guests in this particular program.
[01:14:19] Diana White: I agree, but also going back to it, you talked about professional and personal.
[01:14:23] if I’m in a bar at a bar and somebody walks up to me and he says, I’m the best boyfriend you’ll ever have. I’m creeped out. , I’m creeped out. Yes. You know? Yes. So, so, so again, it’s still, it’s kind of
[01:14:38] Robert Hossary: a, I think you speak for every person on this planet. If someone walked up to you in a bar and said that you’d be creeped out.
[01:14:46] Diana White: But again, that’s self-promotion. You know, even if I’m in the supermarket and the cashier’s ringing everything up and I’m saying, Wow. She’s really fast, but I don’t mention anything to her or him, and all of a sudden they look up at me and say, you know, I’m the best cashier this side of the west.
[01:15:03] Diana White: I’ll be like, oh. Weird flex, but Okay. you know, like, well,
[01:15:08] I think you nailed the,you hit the nail on the head before when you said it. It depends, right? It does. It does. You mentioned, there was a proverb. it was saying that the squeakies, we’ll get the grease.
[01:15:19] Jeffery Wang: But in some context, in, in some cultures, the loudest duck gets shot. So it depends.
[01:15:26] I’ll, I’ll add one last thing to this, and that is a lot of the people who blow their own horn are talking about things that happened in the past.
[01:15:36] Diana White: Uhhuh .
[01:15:38] Robert Hossary: Think about that. , because if you are gonna spend, you know, everyone’s time telling them how you were great five years ago or three years ago, this is an idea you had when you were 20, who cares?
[01:15:51] Robert Hossary: Quite frankly. Who cares? Yeah.
[01:15:56] Jeffery Wang: And on that note, we will finish as we. Forward to our next a hundred episodes. , you’ve been listening to the podcast 10 lessons. It took me 50 years to learn where we dispense wisdom for career, business, and life. Don’t forget to leave us a review or comment. You can even email us at.
[01:16:15] Jeffery Wang: email@example.com. That’s podcast at number one, zero lessons learned.com. Go ahead and hit that subscribe button so you don’t miss an episode of the only podcast that makes the world a little wiser. Lesson by lesson. Thanks for listening and stay safe everyone.