Warren Farrell – Soul-Mate Wisdom

[00:00:08] Jeffery Wang: hello and welcome to 10 Lessons Learned, my name is Jeffery Wang, the founder of Professional Development Forum and your host today. This podcast is sponsored by the Professional Development Forum, which helps diverse young professionals find fulfillment in the modern workplace.
[00:00:21] Jeffery Wang: Today we’re joined by Dr. Warren Farrell. Warren Farrell, Ph. D., has coached couples and psychologists in couples’ communication for the past 30 years. Dr. Farrell has been chosen by the Financial Times of London as one of the world’s top 100 thought leaders.
[00:00:37] Jeffery Wang: his books are published in 19 languages, which includes the New York Times bestseller, Why Men Are The Way They Are. International bestseller, The Myth of Male Power and 2018’s The Boy Crisis. Dr. Farrell has been interviewed by Oprah, Barbara Walters, Tucker Carlson, Jordan Peterson, Peter Jennings, Katie Couric and Charlie Rose. He has frequently written for and been featured in the New York Times and publications worldwide. Warren has two daughters and lives with his wife in Mill Valley, California and virtually at warrenfarrell. com. Now, I’ve been a fan of yours, Dr. Farrell, and, I must say that when I was researching you, a fun fact I discovered when I asked, ChatGPT to write a quick introduction for you, and this is what ChatGPT has come up with.
[00:01:27] Warren Farrell: What you just read or something new you’re going to say?
[00:01:30] Jeffery Wang: something new. And, and this is what shocked me because chat, GPT, seems to think that above all things you are, an advocate for men’s rights. a men’s rights activist as they call it. he has dedicated his career to exploring issues of gender equality and. Challenges faced by men in modern society. That’s not too far wrong. Farrell’s work often focuses on the impact of societal expectations and gender stereotypes on men’s, men’s mental health relationships and overall wellbeing. Still on track. Now, this is the beautiful part. I don’t know if you’ve ever done this, but your book, right?
[00:02:04] Jeffery Wang: According to this, you have written a book called why men are afraid and women are angry.
[00:02:10] Warren Farrell: I’ve never written that book.
[00:02:12] Warren Farrell: No! Women are afraid and men are That’s a good
[00:02:17] Jeffery Wang: Why men are afraid, and women are angry. So that’d be the title of your next
[00:02:21] Jeffery Wang: book, Dr. Fowle. And this has sparked important conversations and debates about gender roles and equality. So, now I happen to have looked into a bit of your history. I know you started off, as a male feminist and ended up as a men’s rights activist, I’d love to know a little bit about your journey from one to the other.
[00:02:42] Warren Farrell: Well, I have not ended up as a men’s rights activist. that’s a mistake by Wikipedia, which I would consider myself an advocate of gender liberation, freeing both sexes from the rigid roles of the past to more flexible roles for our future. men’s rights advocates are oftentimes very upset and to the point of being angry, or at least they’re interpreted as being angry at women.
[00:03:06] Warren Farrell: and many times they’re angry at least at feminism and feminism’s portrayal of men as being part of the patriarchy and, and they’re defining the patriarchy as feeling That means that men made the rules to benefit men at the expense of women, and that’s something I definitely don’t agree with and explain why that’s not the case, but it’s, but as a result there’s a lot of anger.
[00:03:31] Warren Farrell: I see how that’s come about and try to explain why, you know, what a, what a perspective that is that men have and feel, that does not reflect, the accuracy of that statement. oftentimes men’s rights is linked to misogyny.
[00:03:45] Warren Farrell: And I’m extremely female positive and supportive of that portion of feminism that empowers women. I’m just opposed to that portion of feminism that portrays women as victims, because I don’t think that we respect people who portray themselves as victims. I do think that portraying yourself as a victim can lead to people feeling empathetic for you and wanting to help you and save you.
[00:04:10] Warren Farrell: And it gives you a certain type of victim power, but it doesn’t hone respect for you, I don’t want women to be disrespected. therefore, I talk about why it is not true that women have been, not cared for loved and respected.
[00:04:27] Warren Farrell: I’m really strongly in favor of the empowerment of women and also discovering what, men are going through that has basically not been discovered by this culture.
[00:04:37] Jeffery Wang: and that kind of leads me to a point that, you know, I feel like the world’s gone off a bit of a deep end, especially in popular culture. You know, the position you hold is incredibly nuanced, incredibly Well thought out, and certainly I think a vast majority of the population would agree with, but why do you think that popular culture has, I suppose a strawman of, your positions and many others, including, I, I’d imagine plenty of people who’s been labeled as men’s, right?
[00:05:05] Jeffery Wang: Activists and plenty, plenty of people that’s been labeled as feminists and made a caricature of what they actually believe.
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[00:05:12] Warren Farrell: as you know, and referred to in the introduction, I was deeply involved in the feminist movement. I was on the board of directors of the National Organization for Women in New York City, which was the main center, moderate feminist organization.
[00:05:27] Warren Farrell: Very good friends with Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan and people like that. I started to speak around the world on the importance of women’s issues. at the beginning of the women’s movement, there was always an anger toward men. but that has magnified now even more so.
[00:05:44] Warren Farrell: But there was more of an emphasis on, I am woman, I am strong. And today, there’s been more of an emphasis on I am woman, I’ve been wronged, and here are the million ways that I’ve been wronged and hashtag me too. Now, I’m a strong supporter of hashtag me too, because I think that anytime somebody expresses their feelings, that’s a positive.
[00:06:06] Warren Farrell: What misled the world is that hashtag me too was the women’s story. there was no such thing as a hashtag men too. And men have their story, and so what I’m in favor of is, hashtag me too being a dialogue of men and women, not a monologue of women as victims alone. And so, what I talk about therefore, more recently has been what boys are going through.
[00:06:38] Warren Farrell: Why are they struggling to the degree that they are? When I did the research for the boy crisis, I looked at the evidence from all around the world. It doesn’t really differ very much from Australia to the United States, to England, to Canada. all the developed nations, I should say, less developed nations are more focused on survival.
[00:06:58] Warren Farrell: Once you move past survival issues, you start worrying about, fulfillment. you start caring about communication. You start caring about, and not just being a role mate, as I talk about in the book Role Mate to Soul Mate but being a soul mate. You want something more for your partner.
[00:07:14] Warren Farrell: from your partner, you want to be understood by your partner, you want to be seen, you want to be heard. these are things that everybody would have cared about throughout all of history. But when you’re barely putting food on the table and you’re having work in a coal mine, you come home exhausted, you have black lung disease, you’re barely surviving.
[00:07:31] Warren Farrell: You’re not talking about, I want to make sure that you really see and hear my perspective and that you, you know, how to not experience my criticism as something you get defensive about. Would you sit down for an hour or two and really listen to me and then I’ll listen to you
[00:07:48] Warren Farrell: in Rolemate to Soulmate, this is like, I don’t have time for this, and I’m trying to put food on the table, I’m exhausted, she’s exhausted from, you know, having, born, five, six, ten children, you know, and risked her life, many times and, he’s often risked his life in war, just as, she’s risked her life, by the children she’s, born.
[00:08:10] Jeffery Wang: and that’s a great segue because I was going to mention that your new book, Rolemate to Soulmate, comes from a popular course that you run for couples. this is one way that you can make it available to as many people as possible, which I think it’s a must read for pretty much everybody. when I started, I didn’t even know what the term role mate, meant. And as you mentioned before, ate about survival. yeah, it’s kind of, we, we just play a role in order to survive, but to move from a role mate to a soulmate requires a whole lot of, work and understanding, as you mentioned.
[00:08:42] Jeffery Wang: The 10 lessons, as you name them, Soulmate Wisdom, which I really like. So, you shared with me a list of Soulmate Wisdoms.

[00:08:51] Soulmate Wisdom 1: The secret to feeling loved is to feel understood.

[00:08:51] Jeffery Wang: Soulmate Wisdom number one, the secret to feeling loved is to feel understood.
[00:08:56] Warren Farrell: Yes, no one says, I want a divorce. My partner understands me. if you feel understood by your partner and millions of women, have these beautiful diamonds. Some have less beautiful diamonds. but even the ones with beautiful diamonds, and oftentimes especially the ones with beautiful diamonds, are filing for divorce.
[00:09:16] Warren Farrell: But I’d say a relatively small number of those women filing for divorce feel really understood. Conversely, when I have interviewed sex workers, I’ve been surprised to hear sex workers saying that, yes, men are interested in sex, but actually, they spend far more time, and their heart opens up when they tell me all the things that they don’t feel understood about.
[00:09:41] Warren Farrell: It feels like they care more about being understood than even about, being sexual. it gives you a sense of how powerful feeling understood and seen is. the core of my Rolemate to Soulmate book and workshop is creating a caring and sharing practice.
[00:09:58] Warren Farrell: I have couples put aside just two hours a week. at the beginning of those two hours, I train them to appreciate each other at seven levels that usually only require five levels of specificity. after they’ve shared at those five levels of specificity, to be able to share one concern that they have.
[00:10:18] Warren Farrell: usually a concern that your partner has, is experienced by the person hearing the concern as a criticism. And the, the biologically natural response to criticism is feeling defensive. if you’re saying, yes, I’ve got to say to myself that I really am defensive more than I’d like to be when I’m criticized, don’t blame yourself.
[00:10:44] Warren Farrell: You can, you can look at biology. Historically speaking, when you were criticized, when somebody was criticized, it was a potential enemy. And it was functional to get up defenses, to make sure we weren’t defeated by the enemy, or alternatively to defeat, to kill the enemy before the enemy killed us. And so that was functional for survival.
[00:11:09] Warren Farrell: It’s just dysfunctional for love. And what the goal of my workshop was, and when I was able to achieve that goal, why I was so motivated to put it into book form in terms of Role Made to Soul Mate. The goal of that was to have people set aside a time per week where they knew that whatever, instead of walking on eggshells and wondering how and when, I can mention this to my partner, to be able to really say whatever they felt in whatever, way that they felt it and whatever tone of voice that they wanted to express it, have it be accurate or not accurate.
[00:11:48] Warren Farrell: And to know that the person you love as they’re feeling this is saying to themselves a series of mindsets is altering their biologically natural states so they can make it safe for you. to say whatever, you want. one of the six mindsets that I have people, deeply take in and say out loud is the first mindset the love guarantee.
[00:12:13] Warren Farrell: And the love guarantee says, the person who’s about to hear the criticism says, I know that if I provide a safe environment, For you to say whatever you want, in whatever way you want, even if I 100 percent disagree with it, or think it’s a lie, or think that you’re trying to make an excuse for something, I’m just going to forget about all of that while you’re talking, and attach just to what you say.
[00:12:37] Warren Farrell: when I do that, I know you’ll feel more secure with me, and therefore you’ll feel more loved by me, and therefore you’ll feel more love for me. And when they say this out loud, they’re centering themselves into that meditation of realizing that wow, even if my partner is shouting or sarcastic or has said something that I could say in my mind, normally speaking, that isn’t true.
[00:13:03] Warren Farrell: And I’d begin to form my argument against it. If I just forget about that. And I teach them how to forget about that for a while, temporarily, and just hear their partner. the combination of all these things leaves their partner feeling understood and seen. even if later, when I provide the opportunity for them to share a different story, when that different story is heard and both feel heard and seen, even if they still don’t change their mind or agree with their partner’s perspective, almost nobody in relationships feels heard and seen as deeply as they would like to.
[00:13:42] Warren Farrell: And so that’s the number one, love enhancement out of 23 love enhancements that are part of the Role Mate to Soul Mate book.
[00:13:49] Jeffery Wang: Absolutely.
[00:13:50] Jeffery Wang: Wow, to sum up lesson one, to feel understood, you need to be intentional about creating the mental state to understand each other and to stop yourself from trying to become defensive and create that space. And through doing that, you’ll create. The kind of level of connection, the feeling of love with each other.
[00:14:14] Jeffery Wang: So that’s definitely, there’s a lot to unpack there.
[00:14:16] Warren Farrell: Absolutely.

[00:14:18] Soulmate Wisdom 2: Our choice of partner is the most important statement about our choice of values.

[00:14:18] Jeffery Wang: Lesson number two, or soulmate wisdom number two, you say. Our choice of partner is the most important statement about our choice of values.
[00:14:27] Jeffery Wang: That’s very profound, that one.
[00:14:30] Warren Farrell: Thank you. yes, what I see oftentimes is somebody will be in the, I teach a lot at Esalen, which is a place in Big Sur, California. And it has a little bit of a new age quality to it. sometimes people will come in, one of the partners will be very new age in orientation, and the other one will be, a lawyer or an engineer or a banker.
[00:14:53] Warren Farrell: by the time they get to the workshop, it’s like, my wife or husband is so, into this Esalen type of stuff and spiritual new age, Zen this and Zen that. Meditation and the partner is saying, the one accused of being that way, is saying, I can’t even get my husband to come to this course on couples’ communication.
[00:15:16] Warren Farrell: He says he loves me, or she says she loves me, but I don’t want to go to a couple’s course now. More frequently the spiritual new age person is the woman, you know, who and more frequently, the banker engineer is the man, but it’s sometimes reverse. and so, so what I get them to do is to look at, why did you, the spiritual yoga person, choose this.
[00:15:41] Warren Farrell: this banker, this lawyer, I thought he was really, brilliant. I loved his stability, that type of thing. oftentimes the choice of your partner especially when your partner is the opposite type of personality, comes from a void inside yourself that this other person, fulfills and compliments, at your best, you do complement each other, but usually you begin to see the qualities they have that you admired at first.
[00:16:09] Warren Farrell: the lawyer was just so relieved that somebody was into yoga and seemed centered happy and spiritual. the spiritual person was like, well, this guy is solid as a rock. I can really depend on him and count on him. And besides, he has a beautiful home and I’ll be moving in and feel secure.
[00:16:27] Warren Farrell: And I can therefore be more of a writer or a new age person because I can now feel secure economically. he doesn’t come to these, workshops. I had to tell him that he was going to go to a spa and then he agreed that he’d go to this. And now, but it really, it was a, you know, Role Mate to Soul Mate workshop because what in the world is this?
[00:16:45] Warren Farrell: and he’s thinking, every, workshop like this is just oriented toward the female anyway. And I’m going to be put down and told why I’m wrong. so, he comes in with enormous, emotional, guards. but when I get them to see like, before you criticize your partner, look in the mirror.
[00:17:02] Warren Farrell: And see the reasons you chose that partner you are now criticizing that is helpful for the person to, rather than pointing a finger out, first point a finger in.
[00:17:14] Jeffery Wang: And it’s not always obvious why, sometimes it’s subconscious, isn’t it? When they made those choice of partners, and bringing it into the conscious, actually help them understand what the, the values that they truly hold, when they made that choice.
[00:17:30] Warren Farrell: Absolutely. And also, the way they may be enabling their partner. when that new age person is not producing any money, that makes the producer of money, feel more like they have to produce more money and so they focus more on that. And conversely, when that lawyer doesn’t want to go to a Rolemate to Soulmate Workshop, the woman starts talking more to other women friends and begins to build up a dependency on that, income, that the, she then, that he starts producing more of the income and becoming less of the way she says she wants, even though she’s, helping to facilitate him being the way he does it.
[00:18:08] Warren Farrell: Mm-Hmm.

[00:18:09] Soulmate Wisdom 3: Every virtue taken to its extreme becomes a vice.

[00:18:09] Jeffery Wang: So, it’s being mindful of exactly what you’re doing in that front.
[00:18:14] Jeffery Wang: that leads very well to soulmate wisdom number three, every virtue taken to its extreme becomes a vice.
[00:18:20] Warren Farrell: this is, such an important, wisdom in my opinion that a whole chapter in, uh, Role Mate to Soul made is focused on this one point. So that’s many ways that this manifests. the person, let’s say you’re disagreeing with somebody you love, politically. and so, we were talking before about feminism. and one of the person says, the feminists have become cancel culture in their orientation woke and anti-male, They’ve caused enormous stress and problems for men and made women feel like, they’re professional victims somebody else feels that, feminism, has helped their daughter, feel that, that she could have opportunities that, you know, That grandmother never even thought about for herself, and my own wife feels that way, this person might say.
[00:19:07] Warren Farrell: So, before I start arguing about, you know, is feminism a devil or is feminism an angel, and let me, um, spend some time looking at the original virtue. What is the virtue train that has gone so far that it moved into Vice land? in our country, we have, Tim Walz and Jeff Walz, they’re brothers.
[00:19:28] Warren Farrell: Tim Walz is running for vice president of the United States. Jeff Walz says he hasn’t spoken to Tim Walz, for eight years because he has, all these progressive ideas that he hates and doesn’t want to talk with him about it. So, I would ask, Jeff Walz to, rather than condemning Tim Walz for his progressive ideas, first start with the virtue.
[00:19:49] Warren Farrell: find your sister, your daughter, your wife that has pursued opportunities your grandma would never have thought of as a result. of feminism opening doors. so, um, find the virtue before it went over to cancel culture woke and men, men, bad women, good men, part of the patriarchy, men having male privilege, male power, those things you dislike.
[00:20:16] Warren Farrell: Focus first on what you found is the virtue. in almost everything that we, we do as loved ones, there’s The vices, the things that we disagree with, there’s a, there’s a virtue you can, that you can trace back, and find, very positive.
[00:20:35] Jeffery Wang: But how do you know that you’ve taken that virtue so far that it’s become a vice? so what if you’re that person that has taken feminism to its extremes? how do you know when you’ve crossed that line?
[00:20:45] Warren Farrell: that’s a really important question, because here’s what often happens. Let’s say, well, what happened with me? I probably was the world’s leading male feminist for a number of years and spoke all around the world on this issue.
[00:20:57] Warren Farrell: I began to articulate everything in terms of women having, disadvantages and men having advantages, and there being sort of a Patriarchy type of, thing. And so, I didn’t really recognize where I might be taking to an extreme. but if somebody were to sort of try to point that out to me, it would have been helpful for them to start.
[00:21:22] Warren Farrell: Warren, here are some of the good things that I think you and other feminists have contributed. And if I were to try to hear him or her, I would explain why I believe in, you know, protecting women and cancel culture, things like that.
[00:21:35] Warren Farrell: Before I would feel heard, it’ll be wonderful for people to say things like, you know, I can see Warren that you really value the family, and that feminism is often critical of the nuclear family. you want the family to be together. You want fathers to have equal time after divorce because you really feel that children do better when they have both fathers and mothers in the family.
[00:21:59] Warren Farrell: rather than attacking me you hear me for the virtue behind it, the importance of the family, the importance of the father, maybe I’m a conservative that, believes in God and how important God is.
[00:22:10] Warren Farrell: you talk about how belief in God might help children have a type of stability and internal security that they didn’t otherwise have. in hearing someone, you find their virtue, rather than arguing with what you feel is the vice that it’s become.
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[00:22:32] Jeffery Wang: I certainly think in this hyper polarized world that we live in today, we can all do with a lot more of, practicing that. I find in my own personal experience, whenever I try to look for the virtue in, the other person’s point of view, they tend to be a lot more receptive.

[00:22:48] Soulmate Wisdom 4: Criticism looks different to the criticizer and the criticized

[00:22:48] Jeffery Wang: this actually leads very well to Soulmate Wisdom 4. Critical criticism looks different to the criticizer. And they’re criticized.
[00:22:55] Warren Farrell: Yes. so almost everybody who, let’s say somebody, says, could you put the dishes more frequently in the dishwasher rather than the sink? From the perspective of your partner saying that, she or he is feeling like they’re, you know, they’re helping create a more peaceful, clean home and it’s a suggestion that will improve the home environment.
[00:23:20] Warren Farrell: From the perspective of the person hearing that, it usually feels like a criticism, like I didn’t put the dishes in the sink. you know, I should have, so they come up with some type of thing like, you know, well, you know, you did put the dishes in the sink a couple of days ago, you left them there.
[00:23:36] Warren Farrell: They got dirty. In fact, the egg got sort of all crusty. I didn’t even get cleaned later in the dishwasher. but the only person you think about criticizing is me, not you. Why don’t you look at yourself before you yell at me? And of course, from the person who’s saying that perspective, A, it wasn’t yelling, and B, it was just a suggestion.
[00:23:55] Warren Farrell: The person hearing that has now responded to that, not by taking that in and really hearing it, but rather that it’s made it dangerous for the person to suggest that concern, because she or he knows, that there’s a good chance that they’ll get a response like I just described, and so that will lead to an argument, that will lead to, that will escalate, the whole, discussion between them, and maybe it’s, it’s just before they went out to visit some guests or went to a play or a concert, and instead of feeling relaxed and taking advantage of the play, the concert, or the guests, they’re feeling all tension inside that they’re repressing during the time that they’re at that play, concert, or get, with their guests, and so, And so one of the things that I teach people to do in the process of handling, criticism in the way that I was mentioning before, like in the caring and sharing practice, is to understand that, what you perceive as criticism is very frequently perceived not as criticism by the person sharing that, but only as expressing a concern or idea to improve the relationship.
[00:25:02] Warren Farrell: even and improve intimacy, therefore, rather than what you experience it as, is, as a criticism that made you feel more, separate and angry and upset with your partner.
[00:25:14] Jeffery Wang: Yeah, I can certainly identify with that, especially when I’ve been the criticizer and had my intentions misunderstood or perceived to be more, negative than intended.

[00:25:28] Soulmate Wisdom 5: Anger is Vulnerability’s Mask.

[00:25:28] Jeffery Wang: So, again, leads very well to soulmate wisdom number five, anger. is Vulnerability’s Mask. we all know sometimes we’re quick to anger in relationships.
[00:25:40] Warren Farrell: Yes. And so, let’s say you’re having that discussion about the dishes which is a minor one compared to many things. and the person feels criticized and then they get angry. what’s really happening there? That anger is almost always because they feel criticized.
[00:25:58] Warren Farrell: What happens when you feel criticized? You feel vulnerable. You feel attacked. what I try to work with couples to do is to understand that every time you hear anger from your partner or anybody, think vulnerability. if you hear anger, you will almost invariably respond to anger with anger.
[00:26:21] Warren Farrell: If you hear vulnerability, or you feel, you can allow yourself to feel vulnerability, you will almost always respond to vulnerability with empathy. And so, both you as the person who’s getting angry, rather than get angry, the second you hear yourself or feel yourself get angry, check inside of yourself, in what way do I feel vulnerable, and then share that vulnerability.
[00:26:50] Warren Farrell: I feel vulnerable when you criticize me for putting the dishes in the sink because I love you so much and I don’t want to disappoint you. And I know you’ve asked about that before, and I’ve forgotten. So, I feel like a failure. I’m sorry. then, don’t worry about it, sweetie, I just love you too, and the whole thing is different, when that’s the response.
[00:27:14] Jeffery Wang: But doesn’t that take some sort of a Zen like, emotional maturity to be able to see yourself at that point, you know, often we react, right? It’s a, it’s an instinctive anger instinct rather than, you know, thinking it through understanding that there’s vulnerability behind that anger and, showing empathy.
[00:27:34] Jeffery Wang: So how do you, I mean, is this a case of just becoming so emotionally in control that you can see things for what they are and not be driven by the emotion?
[00:27:44] Warren Farrell: There’s three answers to that question. Yes, yes, and yes. So, what this really takes is practice. in the Role Mate to Soul Mate book, I say a number of times, make sure you don’t just read this book. because when you read this book, this will give you, I think, a lot of wisdom.
[00:28:05] Warren Farrell: But this wisdom, if it’s not practiced, will disappear when the criticism appears, the wisdom disappears.in the book, I make an online course that you can see. And this has many, many, the book has in it as well, many practices, but it’s a lot easier to do the practice with your partner, being able to hear your partner handle, criticize your partner while your partner is not defensive.
[00:28:31] Warren Farrell: you have to actually practice those with your partner. every week put a caring and sharing practice on the calendar and practice it again and again, why? Because you’re not going to hear anger as vulnerability if you don’t practice that, because everything that it takes to become a soulmate is biologically unnatural.
[00:28:53] Warren Farrell: It has and so you have to practice unnatural behavior. that is wiser and more effective in a relationship. You have to practice that anger as vulnerability’s mask again and again, and you will slowly begin to reprogram the neurons in your brain, to make that more natural. But it isn’t natural to anyone.
[00:29:17] Warren Farrell: I used to have the subtitle of the, my actual course called the art and discipline of love, Role Mate to Soul Mate as a book or as a, as an online video is not something you’ll get the first time. It has to be practiced again and again. The good news is that when it’s practiced, it really does make a change, and you feel a type of love that couples feel they’ve never felt before at that level of depth.
[00:29:43] Warren Farrell: And what many parents who are couples appreciate is that their children are picking up these ways of solving problems and hearing each other The only complaint I’ve had about that is a couple of parents said to me once, half joking, that since their children have begun to pick these things up, they’re the most popular kids in school and therefore don’t tend to do their homework as much as they should. And so, every virtue taken to its extreme becomes a vice.

[00:30:10] Soulmate Wisdom 6: Falling in love is biologically natural and sustaining love is biologically unnatural

[00:30:10] Jeffery Wang: That’s right, I can see how all these lessons come together and you’re just way ahead of me.
[00:30:15] Jeffery Wang: Soulmate Wisdom six, falling in love is biologically natural and sustaining love is biologically unnatural.
[00:30:23] Jeffery Wang: So, we’ve talked about the discipline of sustaining that love and practicing love.
[00:30:28] Jeffery Wang: for example, seeing anger as vulnerability and dealing with that. these are indeed very valuable lessons.
[00:30:35] Jeffery Wang: should we move on to cellmate wisdom number seven then? Yes, you’ve already covered six.
[00:30:40] Warren Farrell: you said, Falling in Love is Biologically Unnatural and Sustaining it is Biologically Unnatural. therefore, you’ve got to practice it this book and the online virtual course is not for the person that wants to quickly breeze through it and say, got it. it really takes practice.
[00:30:55] Jeffery Wang: And the best books usually are, you never get everything in the first read. and I do think that a lot of the wisdom has multiple levels. Once you start practicing it, I think a lot of the other, you know, I suppose the, once, once you start, you know, doing it, the aha moment will come, the light bulb will come on, and then you realize there’s so much more to it.

[00:31:15] Soulmate Wisdom 7: The path to relationship wealth is appreciating your partner as if you’re panning for gold

[00:31:15] Jeffery Wang: all right. soulmate wisdom number seven, the path to relationship wealth is appreciating your partner as if you’re panning for gold. What do you mean by panning for gold?
[00:31:24]
[00:31:25] Warren Farrell: It’s sort of like, when people were, panning for gold, they had to put their check, where is the gold? As opposed to, oh, that’s a, that, that’s a stone. That’s not gold. in relationships, let’s say they cut you come home from shopping, and you’ve picked up 32 items and your partner and you are putting the items in the refrigerator, and somebody says, oh, you know, I kind of wish you had gotten, this, this gallon of milk is hard to put in the refrigerator.
[00:31:57] Warren Farrell: I wish I’d gotten a quart size rather than the gallon. It’s a lot easier to put in the refrigerator. what that person has just done. Is out of the 32 items picked up at the supermarket, fault was found with one of those items. so that person has panned not for gold but looked for the stone.
[00:32:17] Warren Farrell: and so, the panning for gold is like what is there about these other 31 items that I really appreciate? Or even what is there about the gallon of milk that I appreciate. I appreciate the fact that probably a gallon of milk per ounce was less expensive. so, you could say, I really appreciate that the gallon is a less expensive way of buying the milk,
[00:32:41] Warren Farrell: Put your finger on the stone, the non-gold, find the gold in the other 31 items. it was one of those items, something you didn’t request, but was on sale, and was organic, another item, your partner chose some heirloom tomatoes, and they were nice and firm rather than soft and mushy.
[00:33:00] Warren Farrell: the panning for gold is also a discipline. It’s unnatural. It’s natural to find what’s wrong. before you find what’s wrong, find what’s right. Pan for gold.
[00:33:11] Jeffery Wang: the thing that you pay more attention to is the thing you’re going to see more of. there’s another wisdom that the secret to happiness is gratitude. and ultimately when you’re panning for gold, that’s what you’re going to see more of in your partner.
[00:33:23] Jeffery Wang: when you pay attention to all the positive aspects, your relationship is going to improve. that makes perfect sense to me.

[00:33:29] Soulmate Wisdom 8: The more you love your partner, the more vulnerable you feel.

[00:33:29] Jeffery Wang: Soulmate wisdom number eight, the more you love your partner. The more vulnerable you feel so the harder it is to hear your partner’s criticism without reflexively defending yourself.
[00:33:40] Warren Farrell: yes,
[00:33:41] Jeffery Wang: That’s that makes sense as we were discussing before about the vulnerability.
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[00:33:46] Warren Farrell: If I’m on a plane flying next week, to Washington, D. C. and then to London, you know, somebody, I meet somebody in a plane and they have a different perspective on something myself, or they say something about me. That’s a little bit negative. you know, they choose from the 3000 things that they could choose from.
[00:34:02] Warren Farrell: And then, I then go ahead and, and, you know, It’s not a big thing. but if my wife says something, you know, that’s, that’s, that’s negative. I love her very, very deeply. And so, as somebody who loves her, I want to be doing things that she, that please her, that make her happy.
[00:34:20] Warren Farrell: I want to be her protector and, I don’t want to hurt her I want to be respected by her the deeper I love her, the more vulnerable I feel. When you’re responding defensively, understand that’s a statement about how much in love you are, and how vulnerable you feel.
[00:34:40] Warren Farrell: forgive yourself, and understand that about your partner, that her or his defensiveness. is, is, oftentimes a statement of love.
[00:34:50] Warren Farrell: They all feel vulnerable. They all feel in love with their partner. Therefore, they feel vulnerable. They all feel defensive. They often feel their partner pans for the stones rather than pans for gold
[00:35:01] Warren Farrell: They see that they don’t see the virtue. They see the vice, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:35:07] Jeffery Wang: And the thing I love about these lessons is it goes both ways. When you’re the person feeling vulnerable versus the person feeling defensive, it goes both ways, that wisdom, knowing that when your partner’s becoming defensive, it’s because they love you. Knowing that when you’re becoming defensive, it’s because you love them.
[00:35:25] Jeffery Wang: I think it’s very insightful, so thanks for that.

[00:35:28] Soulmate Wisdom 9: When either of us wins, both of us lose.

[00:35:28] Jeffery Wang: Soulmate wisdom number nine, when either of us wins, both of us lose. how can that happen? shouldn’t both of us win when one of us win?
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[00:35:36] Warren Farrell: yeah, sometimes somebody will say to me, I won that argument. I’ll sort of laugh
[00:35:41] Jeffery Wang: Ah, right,
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[00:35:42] Warren Farrell: If you think you’ve won an argument, you’ve lost. you know, you, and this is not just, you know, we’ve often heard happy wife, happy life. and it’s not just when you think you, when you, a guy, think you, you know, won an argument with your wife that you lose.
[00:35:56] Warren Farrell: when a woman thinks she’s won an argument. if she’s made him feel bad as a result of her winning, then they’ve both lost. And when only one sex wins, both sexes lose.
[00:36:08] Jeffery Wang: I can’t agree with that more. when there’s an argument, it’s not to be won, an argument is to be resolved through communication and understanding. And when one wins, both of you lose. That is incredibly profound. Thank you.

[00:36:24] Soulmate Wisdom 10: Never say what you don’t want, ask for what you do

[00:36:24] Jeffery Wang: Soulmate Wisdom Number 10. Never say what you don’t want, ask for what you do.
[00:36:30] Warren Farrell: like for example, a simple thing is, you know, somebody will say, Oh God, you left the toilet seat up. as opposed to I love the aesthetics of the toilet seat, being down, would you be good enough to put it down?
[00:36:42] Warren Farrell: you’re asking for what you would like, as opposed to criticizing what your partner did that you didn’t like. That’s it. It is amazing how frequently we go for the criticism as opposed to the, what we would like our partner to do. When we present what we’d like we give our partner the opportunity to be a winner.
[00:37:04] Warren Farrell: When we present what they did wrong, our partner feels criticized and vulnerable because they love us. rather than saying the toilet seat belongs down, not, it’s much more effective if you say something along the lines like, I love the aesthetics of the toilet seat being down, because somebody who loves you is likely to want to do something that pleases you, that fits your aesthetics, than just plain being told the toilet seat belongs down.
[00:37:43] Warren Farrell: the same type of thing with, let’s stay in the bathroom for a minute. Toilet paper, you know, people will sometimes say the toilet paper should be taken from the, you know, the bottom up and others say from the top down. if you say the toilet paper is supposed to be taken from the top down.
[00:38:00] Warren Farrell: even if you look up how, toilet paper was originally, invented and find that in fact, you know, hotels do put the, do the toilet paper down. If you are absolutely perfect in your analysis and you say the toilet paper, paper is supposed to be taken this way rather than the other way, you are not, leaving your partner feeling more loved.
[00:38:21] Warren Farrell: You’re feeling, you’re making your partner. You’re making your partner more wrong by your analysis.
[00:38:28] Jeffery Wang: and this doesn’t just apply to,
[00:38:30] Jeffery Wang: the couples, I can think of the way that I’m motivating my son, instead of saying, stop being so lazy, I should be saying, I love it when you work hard and try your best. that will have a very different, and profound impact on how he feels and how much he’s motivated to give his all and put in more effort.
[00:38:49] Jeffery Wang: So, I’d certainly take heed in that lesson. So, thanks for sharing that. soulmate wisdom number 11.

[00:38:55] Soulmate Wisdom 11. When criticism appears, wisdom disappears

[00:38:55] Jeffery Wang: Now I know we were called 10 lessons, but I love how you’ve given me 11 lessons. and as we’ve mentioned this one before, when criticism appears, wisdom disappears.
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[00:39:05] Warren Farrell: when I started my Role Mate to Soul Mate Workshops, I used to say, don’t be defensive in response to criticism and everybody would agree. I allow all the people in my workshop. to a free follow up phone call in which, about two or three or four months later.
[00:39:22] Warren Farrell: And they tell me what worked and what didn’t almost invariably many people would say, I really believe what you said about, when criticized at a workshop, don’t get defensive. I knew I was going to take it home. Thank you very much.
[00:39:35] Warren Farrell: I got home. A criticism appeared and that wisdom disappeared, and that’s what I mean by this has to be practiced again and again. the good news is that after a while, you are able to handle a criticism and say to yourself, once you’ve done the caring and sharing practice, you can visualize, I can do one of two things here.
[00:39:57] Warren Farrell: I can either respond. defensively and that will almost invariably escalate and lead to an argument or alternatively, I can wait till the time of the caring and sharing practice and bring it up then and have a hundred percent chance of being heard.
[00:40:12] Warren Farrell: And then I teach people in the book and in the workshop what to do in the meantime. that’s called how to create a conflict free zone and how to sustain a conflict free zone. And what one can do to do that, creating and sustaining a conflict free zone so that you can feel heard and not repress it, or walk on eggshells.
[00:40:34] Warren Farrell: But and you know you’ll feel heard, so there’s six steps that you can do, to get yourself from hearing criticism that you would normally respond to, defensively, to getting yourself to a place where you don’t respond to it defensively. And again, this is a practice, and it takes practice.
[00:40:53] Jeffery Wang: Yeah, look, it’s definitely easier said than done. I can understand it in theory, but I know when it comes to criticisms, you’re right, wisdom will disappear straight out the window. Now, typically we would throw out a bit of a curveball and ask you a lesson you’ve unlearned in life.
[00:41:11] Jeffery Wang: And that is lessons you’ve, taken to be an ironclad truth when you started out, but changed your mind after. But it sounds like all of this wisdom would have been accumulated over years of experience. So which one out of the 11 soulmate wisdoms have you had a profound change of mind in, as you go through the years?
[00:41:29] Warren Farrell: I remember with my former wife, when she would say something critical, she wasn’t very critical, but when she did, I would, as she was talking, be forming in my own mind’s eye, a response I thought I was just explaining my position, but, when I was doing that, she could feel my vibration, was not fully.
[00:41:49] Warren Farrell: leaving her seen and heard I didn’t go through any of the things that I’ve learned to go through now. Everything I’ve taught in the Rolemate to Soulmate book are things that I wasn’t very good at and frankly almost no couple I’ve ever met is very good at.
[00:42:04] Warren Farrell: And so, probably all of these soulmate wisdoms are things that I was deficient in, in many of my years growing up.
[00:42:11]
[00:42:12] Jeffery Wang: thank you so much for sharing that. I certainly have learned a lot. I believe this is a book for every couple that needs it, everyone needs to feel understood. be comfortable. able to communicate and to be able to take feedback and criticism and grow with it.
[00:42:28] Jeffery Wang: So, thank you so much for sharing that lesson, sharing these, 11 lessons and, certainly recommend the book Rolemate to Soulmate to any couples out there. we will, finish on that note. you’ve been listening to the 10 Lessons Learned, podcast that makes the world a little wiser, lesson by lesson.
[00:42:44] Jeffery Wang: Today, we are fortunate enough to. Be joined by our special guest, Dr. Warren Farrell. Thank you to the 10lessons team that makes our show possible. Our episode editor, Cody Como, marketing and social media manager, Yi Wang, and our producer, Robert Hossary, supported as always by the Professional Development Forum. Don’t forget to leave us a review or comment. You can even email us at podcast at 10lessonslearned. com. Go ahead and hit that subscribe button. so, you don’t miss an episode of the only podcast that makes the world a little wiser, lesson by lesson. Thanks for tuning in and stay safe, everyone.

Thanks to our 10 Lessons team that make our show possible: Our Episode Editor Codie Comeau, Marketing and social media managed by Yi Wang, and our Producer Robert Hossary. Sponsored as always by Professional Development Forum. You can find the www.professionaldevelopmentforum.org.

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