Steven Scanlon – Be the most interested not the most interesting.

[00:00:08] Robert Hossary: Hello, and welcome to 10 Lessons Learned, where we talk to interesting people from all over the world and dispense their wisdom for your career, business, and life in order to make the world a little wiser, lesson by lesson. My name is Robert Hossary, and I’m your host for this episode.
[00:00:28] Robert Hossary: Today’s guest is Steve Scanlon. Steve is the founder and CEO of Rewire, a coaching and development company that helps companies, teams, and individuals better understand how to make effective changes for a radical improvement in their business and their personal lives.
[00:00:47] Robert Hossary: Steve owned and operated three companies by the time he was 30 and has since dedicated over 30, 000 hours to one-on-one coaching with business executives and top performers.
[00:01:00] Robert Hossary: He has presented hundreds of workshops and keynote sessions to tens of thousands of people across the country.
[00:01:08] Robert Hossary: He is certified by the ICF, has a certificate in interpersonal neurobiology from the Mindsight Institute, and was senior fellow at the Institute of Coaching, which is endowed by the Harvard Medical School. He’s a co-creator and co-host of the Insight Interview Podcast, where he interviews experts and thought leaders about what has contributed to their success.
[00:01:32] Robert Hossary: And he is the author of two books, Reality and Hope, Reflections from a Coach’s Chair, and probably my favorite title I’ve ever heard, Still the Lizard, Transformation is Closer Than You Think. Steve is a self-proclaimed neuroscience geek, passionate golfer, family man, and occasional painter.
[00:01:53] Robert Hossary: Welcome, Steve.
[00:01:55] Steve Scanlon: Great to be here, Robert. Thank you for having me.
[00:01:58] Robert Hossary: Well, I appreciate your time today, and I appreciate the fact that you’re going to share these lessons with our audience.
[00:02:05] Robert Hossary: Let me ask you first question. What would you have told yourself at the age of 30 if you could?
[00:02:11] Steve Scanlon: Oh, man. Um, you know, I’ve actually spent some time, thinking about that. I don’t know if I’ve gone back to 30 or 20 or whenever it might be, but at 30 years old, funny as this sounds, I, again, with the work that I do on the human brain, I would have to consider what my 30 year old brain might’ve been able to hear. And so, think I would have, I hope that the older me, would be considerate of the younger me and not try to get ahead of myself. But generally speaking, I, like many people in the world, I could easily be more patient. I think I would have probably spoken some to the concept of compassion and perhaps rather than a warning, I might’ve said, you’re going to fail, and it’ll be okay.
[00:03:14] Robert Hossary: Isn’t that something that we’ve all gone through? the fear of failure and the older we get, the more experience we get, we understand that it’s okay. It really is okay to fail.
[00:03:25] Steve Scanlon: That’s right. And when you’re 30, it might not feel like it, right?
[00:03:30] Robert Hossary: no, it’s a debilitating fear. That, oh, I can’t fail at this. yes, you can, buddy. You absolutely can. Now that’s a great lesson. This is something that a lot of people need to understand that the thoughts that we had, the personality that we had, and you encapsulated it so well when we were younger it’s not who we are today, we are today, the culmination of all the experiences that we have had.
[00:03:59] Robert Hossary: Every day leading up to today. So, we change, people change. And if you accept that, my God, your life’s going to be so much easier.
[00:04:08] Steve Scanlon: Yeah, it’s the coach in me wants to ask you questions back, but I will,
[00:04:13] Robert Hossary: Please do, love, please.
[00:04:16] Steve Scanlon: want to get into the 10 lessons and I think that’s a really interesting, this is a fascinating thing that you do. and I’m looking forward to that. You’ve reminded me of some research. There’s some pretty actual interesting research about, in your question, if what I would have said to myself when I was 30, if you, Robert, think of yourself. Let’s just say 10 years ago. Let me ask you a question. Are you different today than you were 10 years ago?
[00:04:43] Robert Hossary: Wildly different.
[00:04:46] Steve Scanlon: So, most of us recognize how wildly different we are today from 10 years ago, but the research suggests that many of us would have a great deal of cognitive dissonance if we were to consider that we’re going to be that different in 10 years from now.
[00:05:08] Robert Hossary: Yeah.
[00:05:09] Steve Scanlon: So
[00:05:09] Steve Scanlon: wherever you are, there’s this sensation of this is me and who I am. And so, it’s a little bit unnerving, although fascinating to consider that as different as I was when I was 30, there’s no reason to think that I’m not going to be that different. So, the thoughts that I’ll think and the convictions that I hold and the beliefs that I have. The worldviews that I have, I couldn’t say where they’re going to be different, but if we are that different from 10 years ago, we will likely be that different from 10 years from now.
[00:05:41] Robert Hossary: I agree with that. And it’s, we have an episode coming up, soon. on self-awareness, either soon or past, it depends on when I publish this, on self-awareness.
[00:05:52] Robert Hossary: And that is an important aspect of just your, of you being aware of who you are and being able to then accept today is going to be different to tomorrow,
[00:06:11] Steve Scanlon: is different to yesterday.
[00:06:13] Robert Hossary: And as you said, Steve, it’s very hard to think about who I’m going to be in 10 years’ time, when I feel this way about me today. But then when you put it all in perspective, I didn’t feel this way about me 10 years ago. So yeah, I like where this is going, but as much as I would love to have this conversation, I think, I
[00:06:36] Steve Scanlon: Gotta get to the 10.

[00:06:37] Lesson 1: Be the most interested not the most interesting.

[00:06:37] Robert Hossary: Yeah, I think our audience wants to hear some wisdom from Steve Scanlon.
[00:06:42] Robert Hossary: So, let’s start with lesson number one, which I, again, your lessons are fantastic. Lesson number one, be the most interested, not the most interesting. Talk to me about that.
[00:06:56] Steve Scanlon: Yeah, again, you’re all over the world, so to the degree to which I, I don’t know what television commercials show up all over the world, for many years around here there was a beer commercial, Dos Equis, a Mexican beer, where the key character was, they called him the most interesting man in the world, and he was cliff diving and, I don’t know what else he didn’t, he was the most interesting man, but it really hit me that, As interesting as we try to be, I think one of the lessons that I’m still trying to learn that I think is relevant is I’m trying to practice being more interested than interesting, to live out curiosity of not just the world, but specifically with people. And, to go into a room, to go into a party. And I think a lot of us, we dress up, we want to look good. And we’re, I suspect many people want to be interesting. and I’ve, I’m trying to practice, and this is something that I’ve learned to try to be more. Interested,
[00:08:01] Robert Hossary: How, does that manifest? I understand it, but let’s break it down a little more. So being a little Being more interested. Where is the difference between that and active listening? which is a technique, supposedly. so, being more interested, what exactly do you mean by that?
[00:08:21] Steve Scanlon: that’s a really good question. And when you say exactly, and you point out something like active listening, certainly you’ve heard of the difference between hard skills and soft skills. A hard skill is something that’s tangible and you can practice. You can, like, when you go to the International Coaching Federation or you go through, some sort of therapeutic, modality to learn, they can teach you active listening.
[00:08:45] Steve Scanlon: I’m going to repeat back what you said, and it’s very, formulaic. you do this, and it’s a beautiful practice. I think being interested is a function of curating and really being attentive to being curious, but curiosity is a soft skill. It’s not as tangible. I, as a coach, I don’t know how to tell someone, hey, I want you to be more curious starting on Friday. I think it’s something that you can become aware of. So specifically, if I’m speaking with somebody, and whatever the topic is, and they might express something’s state of what they perceive to be a fact about something. Let’s say it’s not something that I see eye to eye with, rather than for me, try to come against that, I think practicing curiosity. Hey, tell me a little bit more about that. On the one hand, it is active listening, but I think curiosity itself, Robert, is very much a soft skill. Like, how do you let your ego go enough so that you can be genuinely active? Curious about other people. And
[00:10:04] Steve Scanlon: I use the word be, and not do curiosity or do active listening, both of which are wonderful, hard skills, being more curious as a person. requires adaptive and inner work, and it requires work because we all have egos and that’s maybe why my number one is, be more interested and not interesting. being interesting and having that intention I think feeds our ego. Practicing curiosity is a letting go of the ego so that you can really be with other people, in a very present way.
[00:10:41] Steve Scanlon: But I think it’s a practice, very much like a soft skill would be.
[00:10:44] Robert Hossary: No, I love what you just said. Being with other people in a present way. And that is being there. Being curious about what they are doing, what they have to say. I do remember in my earlier days that I would use the active listening, so Steve would say he’s into golf, and I’ll tell I played golf once. and try and, it, that’s not what you’re saying.
[00:11:17] Robert Hossary: Be curious. Be more interested than interesting. I love that. it’s very deep and it’s going to take a while for that lesson to sink into a lot of people. but being more interested is going to open up a lot more doors and a lot more opportunities. It’s not obvious and it’s not blatant, but it will, because you’ll be remembered.
[00:11:44] Robert Hossary: it comes back to, in my opinion again, it comes back to the fact that people would want to be around you because you’re interested in them.
[00:11:56] Steve Scanlon: And we’ve heard, Robert, we’ve heard that quality in someone. I’ve very frequently, and I know people like this, I’m trying to practice being like this, you’ve heard the quality, man, when I’m with that person, I feel like I’m the only person on the planet. Like there, yes, that there is some active listening and I’m reflecting back, here’s what I heard you say. And there is a great hard skill with that. But being interested is allowing myself to let my ego go and not try to, I think I heard it said one time that You know, being selfless, it’s not necessarily thinking, being humble, for example, which is a very dangerous thing to talk about, but humility isn’t about thinking less of yourself.
[00:12:40] Steve Scanlon: It’s just thinking of yourself less. And so, when we’re interested in other people, I guess I get to put down, what do I sound like? What do I feel like? Am I going to, do I play better golf than that guy? Do I dress better than, what am I saying? How am I thinking? And instead, really hone into who you are and what you’re saying.
[00:12:58] Steve Scanlon: And again, you echoed it really well. I think it’s a real great function of being present.
[00:13:03] Robert Hossary: I love it. I think that’s a, that’s really a great life skill to have and it’s a great way of putting it. Be more interested. love it.

[00:13:15] Lesson 2: Don’t believe everything you think.

[00:13:15] Robert Hossary: All right, Steve, let’s go on to our second lesson, which. I’m not sure I quite get, so I’d like to get your explanation on it. Lesson number two don’t believe everything you think.
[00:13:31] Steve Scanlon: You’ll love the origin of where I saw this first. I saw this on a bumper sticker and I was driving down the road and I read that Don’t Believe Everything You Think and I almost had to pull over because I was like, that’s, there’s a, there’s a thought, Robert, that, when I wrote the book about the lizard brain, one of the Characteristics of the lizard brain, which helps our brain protect our survival, is that every, most human beings, if you think a thought, in the moment you think it, it is intuitive and very human to deem your thinking right. Everything you think in the moment you think it, you think you’re right. I think I’m right. If we give the prefrontal cortex a little bit of a chance, we can step back and go, Ooh, I’m not sure I should have said that. I’m not sure I should have done that. And that really. is the practice of what we call metacognition, and all metacognition means is learning to think about how you’re thinking. So, the best example I can give about this, and if anybody wants to practice this, I just tell people go for a drive. For some reason, again, I don’t know about Australia, but in the United States, and you lived here, we all drive around thinking this activity, we might be the only people on the planet that know how to do it.
[00:14:49] Steve Scanlon: And everybody else is some bumbling idiot that doesn’t use their turn signals or speeds or whatever.
[00:14:56] Robert Hossary: I think that’s all over the world, Steve.
[00:14:58] Steve Scanlon: I think so. And so now when I’m driving and I think, gosh, that person, what an idiot. I say, I think that to myself. What if I was trained to examine that thought? What if I had enough awareness?
[00:15:12] Steve Scanlon: When you’re doing your episode on awareness, what if I could go, wow, Steve, what an interesting thought? As opposed to believing that, what if I examined it? What if I accepted it as a thought, but was willing to go, I wonder if that’s correct? Could that person be in a hurry? Might that person, I don’t know, I don’t know anything about that person.
[00:15:36] Steve Scanlon: For me to assign that to a person, I don’t know that I have to believe that, right? What if I think, man, I’m really worried about this or I’m, there’s a lot of worry in the world. What if I’m worried about this? Well, sometimes people drink worry so much it literally becomes a belief system about something.
[00:15:56] Steve Scanlon: And I will tell you that worry and fear and anxiety. are future projections of a negative outcome, but the outcome hasn’t happened yet. So, if I immediately believe that, then I have no other path to take than a belief in something that hasn’t happened yet, which by the way, it’s fictional. And so, I’m believing something in the future, a negative outcome in the future, right?
[00:16:22] Steve Scanlon: That’s what worry is, a future projection of a negative outcome. by the way, if you projected forward, and you didn’t project whatever you were thinking negatively, but rather positively. Worry wouldn’t be the expression. It wouldn’t be the emotion. So don’t believe everything you think is more about learning the practice of metacognition and being able to non-judgementally, explore and examine your own thinking before you deem it right and create a belief system around something.
[00:16:51] Robert Hossary: I like that. And for our audience who may think, wow, this is deep. I say this in many episodes, rewind, listen to Steve again, because it’s, it is deep, but it’s not as deep as you think. Don’t believe everything you think.
[00:17:07] Robert Hossary: it’s, wonderful because it gives you the opportunity to question your thought processes, your thought patterns. I do it a different way. I like to verbalize my thoughts. Because if I can hear a thought out loud, I, sometimes it will just turn around and go, that’s stupid. But that’s me.
[00:17:29] Steve Scanlon: Yeah. And again, we’re not in a coaching call. If you said that thought out loud, I would encourage you to rather think, Hey, Robert, that’s stupid. But rather go, Robert, what an interesting thought. I wonder why I think that.
[00:17:48] Robert Hossary: And that’s why I actually verbalize some of my thoughts and ideas. Because in here, in your head, they sound different. When you verbalize them, you can actually hear them. And then you get, or I get the opportunity to then analyze them.
[00:18:08] Robert Hossary: As opposed to believing what’s in there. That’s fantastic. So, people don’t believe everything you think it’s a really.
[00:18:17] Steve Scanlon: can believe some things, right? Maybe not everything.

[00:18:22] Lesson 3: Practice the art of caring without carrying.

[00:18:22] Robert Hossary: All right, let’s go to lesson number three. so, lesson number three, and you’re really going to have to explain this to me, Steve, practice the art of caring without carrying.
[00:18:35] Steve Scanlon: Oh, I loved your enunciation of that. Again, this was one of my top 10 lessons, primarily because of what I do, but, caring, I care for people. I care for situations. I care for things. when I transfer that to carrying some of the things, then it can create, anxiety, worry, fear. and so, I live in a world where a lot of leaders, again, I’m going to bring this concept of concern and worry and fear and fret and anxiety. A lot of times if you ask someone, we’ll explore that worry, and they will come back and go, I worry because I care so much. And so, the challenge I have for myself when I do that, when I’m carrying, yes, I care, so then I want to ask a different question. Is it possible to care about people without having it create anxiety and worry? So, for example, for your kids, right? I care deeply about my kids. If I begin to carry all the stuff with me, then I make, I’m effectively making myself worse, And I won’t go into too much neuroscience, but if I increase cortisol, right? The stress hormone, actually my own brain is hindered. I can’t be creative.
[00:19:59] Steve Scanlon: I’m not thoughtful because I’m too busy worrying about it. I’m trying to practice what it means to care deeply about people without carrying all the burdens so that I can function in a way where I can actually be useful for people. So, practicing the art of caring without carrying.
[00:20:19] Robert Hossary: But the, just to clarification, the carrying you’re talking about is the fear, of whatever going wrong for the people you care about. So, I’m worried that if my children don’t do well in this class, they’ll never graduate and so that’s the, that’s what I’m carrying. Is that what you’re saying?
[00:20:45] Steve Scanlon: Yes. And so that’s a great example. I’m worried that my kids won’t do well in school, which by the way is very normal. Let me ask you this. In that moment, what is your worrying about that doing for your kids?
[00:21:02] Robert Hossary: Absolutely nothing. Absolutely zero.
[00:21:07] Steve Scanlon: In fact, one could argue it might even go below zero and have a negative impact on them.
[00:21:13] Robert Hossary: yep. I’d agree with that as well.
[00:21:15] Steve Scanlon: yes, the practice, the art of caring, I care deeply, without carrying, the burden, the weight, the fear, the anxiety, which for so many people seems so natural. And that’s why it’s a practice. We’ve been doing this for a lot of years and so learning what it means to maintain that level of deep care without the worry and the fear and the whatever, which does nothing for them. I won’t even go into here because you’ve, I don’t know how deep the pool can get, all of our worry and fear when we pile it up and cortisol gets piled up, you will have a whole host of physiological issues. Anybody can Google, excessive cortisol and stress to cardiovascular disease and all these other diseases.
[00:22:01] Steve Scanlon: So, what did we ever actually do by carrying that stuff? And we did it primarily because to us, it was our demonstration of care. And so, what I’m learning to do, and that’s why it’s on my list, is learning to practice caring deeply without carrying.
[00:22:20] Robert Hossary: I understand that, and I like it. And it’s something that perhaps I’ve been practicing for a long time. I remember a, a book I read when I was a teenager, by, a guru, Baba Ram Dass. And I think Ram Dass was from the UK, believe it or not. But the simple lesson was, be here now, which is what you said basically a few times so far is you’re not, don’t carry this stuff.
[00:22:52] Robert Hossary: Don’t worry about what’s going to happen. Worry about now and carrying all of this is going to impact. everything else and you hide it behind the care factor.
[00:23:06] Robert Hossary: You hide behind the fact I care for you, therefore I’m going to ground you until you do your homework. As an example,
[00:23:14] Steve Scanlon: It’s a great. Great.
[00:23:16] Robert Hossary: that’s not what is going to happen.
[00:23:19] Robert Hossary: What is going to happen is resentment. What is going to happen is that they’re still going to screw up and you’re still going to worry even more and be even less creative as you said, I love this.
[00:23:31] Steve Scanlon: Thank you.
[00:23:32] Robert Hossary: Caring without carrying. Love it.

[00:23:37] Lesson 4: Notice “Othering”.

[00:23:37] Robert Hossary: All right. so, a little while ago, yep, lesson number four, a little while ago we had Dr.
[00:23:42] Robert Hossary: Ellen Langer on the show. and this has shades of Ellen Langer. So, lesson number four, notice othering. Now I’m sorry, I have no idea what the hell you’re talking about. So, notice othering. Over to you, Steve.
[00:24:01] Steve Scanlon: I, when you asked me to put these 10 lessons together, Robert, I did spend some time thinking about them and, you go through a list of, I could come up with a hundred things. This is one that I learned from one of my close friends who’s a practicing Hindu guy. And he said this to me, we were having dinner one night and he said this, and I don’t know if it comes from the Hindu tradition. but and he gave me the word in Sanskrit or Hindi or something like that, and when he translated it, it was othering. And effectively, it’s any time, Robert, that we, in our minds, sometimes with our words, create differences. And maybe the easiest way to put it is when I’m walking down the street and I see someone that’s got different hair than me, that looks different than me, that says different things than me, and I notice it and sometimes I say it, I am creating an otherness. And it’s separating and it’s dividing. And
[00:25:05] Steve Scanlon: so, we already live in a fairly divisive world, and I guess some could argue it’s becoming increasingly divisive. And I think our differences are beautiful, but when we other, if we can use that as a verb, that’s what gets confusing, is other is not typically used as a verb. When we other, we’re literally going, that person’s like this, and I’m like this, and I like that, and we be, we can become very judgmental. I believe that othering is, at its worst creates, it creates biases and prejudices, and I know, I sometimes, I guess to myself, I sound like John Lennon.
[00:25:48] Steve Scanlon: Imagine a world, imagine a world in the Middle East where Palestinians and Israelis didn’t other, or people in the United States didn’t other because of race or color or creed or orientation of any kind, imagine that world. And maybe it’s. Utopian, but at least I can practice it because I can notice it. when I do it and it’s a noticing and I try not to get overly hung up. I just, I notice, when I other. And, my friend, Vikas, who had taught me this lesson, is pretty good about it. And by the way, you’ll notice that think about number one and number four, right? If I’m othering, how could I be curious, if I accept and embrace and include, I can be curious. If I walk around the world and again, I’m not trying to be overly, pointing fingers, but I think a lot of people, again, we’re fairly tribal. And so, I like this tribe. I don’t like that one. They’re in, they’re out, we’re going to build walls, kick people out, the good ones, the bad ones.
[00:26:56] Steve Scanlon: And meanwhile, it’s this giant othering. And I think it creates a lot of divisiveness. And so again, this one’s very personal to me. don’t know that I can change all of the world, but if I could bring that one out, I would say practice notice when you other,
[00:27:12] Robert Hossary: This is the beauty of this show. this is probably the first time we’ve had that lesson in that way. I think this is a very powerful tool to learn, a skill to learn, because it, it taps into the ability to be self-aware. And I’ll give you an example, which is, which I’ve given before, I worked in disability for a while and I didn’t realize how, I didn’t realize I had biases towards people who are living with disabilities.
[00:27:52] Robert Hossary: So I worked in disability, I worked with these people, and I slowly realized, because I wasn’t practicing this, but I must have been doing it, I was starting to notice, I was starting to notice my othering, that the problem was with me. The problem was that I was afraid of how to interact with these people.
[00:28:17] Robert Hossary: I wasn’t concerned that someone had Downs or someone, has got an intellectual, or intellectual or physical disability. I was concerned about how I was going to interact with them so I would avoid them.
[00:28:29] Steve Scanlon: And this is, in my opinion, again, this is a result of noticing that othering.
[00:28:36] Robert Hossary: if you’ve got the ability to notice it, you’ve got the ability to change the way you react to that othering. I love this. It’s, again, a powerful tool if you learn how to do it. and it’s a simple, and please correct me, Steve. It’s as simple as noticing your reaction to other people.
[00:28:59] Robert Hossary: Oh, that person’s got a different skin color than me. And I’m upset about that. Why am I upset about that? is that the othering that we’re talking about?
[00:29:09] Steve Scanlon: Yeah, and that’s taking it to a degree to which you’re
[00:29:11] Steve Scanlon: talking biases and prejudices, which I think that leads to that. And I’m even going back to something as simple as you said, walking down the street and seeing someone’s, something that they’re wearing or something that they’re doing.
[00:29:24] Steve Scanlon: I had the good fortune. I lived in Italy. for three and a half years, met my wife there. and what was interesting about being an American in Italy, I would frequently hear Italians say something to me in Italian, like, Oh, you Americans. You have no history. Italians are very proud of their history,
[00:29:44] Steve Scanlon: the Renaissance and all of that. And somehow, I was less than because I come from a country that is only 200 years old. And I lived in a building that was three times as old as the United States or, and they lived with that. And I actually have not only practiced it myself. I’ve actually been the recipient of being othered by other people.
[00:30:03] Steve Scanlon: And it’s just super interesting.
[00:30:06] Robert Hossary: it is. Look, I, again, I think we could spend an entire episode on this because it’s, it is powerful.

[00:30:15] Lesson 5: Grow in Compassion.

[00:30:15] Robert Hossary: But I know that you’re on a schedule, so let’s go to lesson number five. And please, audience, don’t think that I’m cutting off othering. I love that topic, and I want to talk about it some more, but we’ve got more lessons to share with you.
[00:30:29] Robert Hossary: Lesson number five. Grow in compassion. You’ll get no argument with me, totally agree, but let’s hear your story on this.
[00:30:39] Steve Scanlon: I’m a bit of a, call it a novice, but passionate etymologist. I love the roots of words. I love languages. And when I actually learned what compassion meant and those people that speak most Latin-based languages, at least Spanish and Italian, the word with is con and come, and as a pre word there, Is the same thing.
[00:31:04] Steve Scanlon: Passion is a funny word because in English, I know what it means to be passionate and what passion is and, but the original Latin of passion is actually suffering. And so, growing in compassion, to me, means learning to be with people in their suffering, to be with someone in their suffering. And in fact, in, I don’t know what year it was, 2000, and I’ll get that wrong, two or three or four, something like that.
[00:31:34] Steve Scanlon: Mel Gibson created a movie. There, Mel Gibson, you Australians. He created a movie called The Passion of the Christ. it was, funny name for showing You know, this sort of brutal murder and the suffering of that scene. And so that’s why he named it that because passion in Latin basically means suffering.
[00:31:56] Steve Scanlon: And so being, growing in compassion means growing in my ability to be with other people in their suffering.
[00:32:03] Robert Hossary: Yeah. Yeah, no, I’m with you.

[00:32:05] Affiliate Break

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[00:32:46] Lesson 6: Know the Season.

[00:32:46] Robert Hossary: Our guest today is Steve Scanlon, CEO, founder, trainer, author, podcaster. Okay, Steve, let’s move over to lesson number six, which
[00:32:59] Steve Scanlon: More than
[00:32:59] Robert Hossary: is a little, yeah, it’s a little odd. Lesson number six, know the season. Don’t we always know the season, Steve?
[00:33:08] Steve Scanlon: yeah, I guess winter, spring, summer, and fall. and so obviously this one’s a little bit more of a metaphor for me knowing that life comes in seasons. the birds, the rock 1966 wrote a song called turn, turn.
[00:33:26] Steve Scanlon: Everything there is, turn, turn, which, by the way, was a pretty complete plagiarism of Ecclesiastes 3, but, knowing that whatever season you’re in, it’s a season in the work that I’ve done in interpersonal neurobiology.
[00:33:42] Steve Scanlon: One of the things that I learned is that there is this strange, pull towards making things permanent. If you’re going through a difficult thing. remembering that it’s a season and that the season will end. And in fact, Dr. Daniel Siegel at the Mindsight Institute calls that temporal integration. when we’re going through a challenging time and we compound it by making it permanent, now you’re fighting two battles. And so probably the challenging thing is already enough. So, if we can keep in mind. That whatever the season, it’s a season of our lives. And maybe that would have been something I would have shared with my 30-year-old.
[00:34:29] Robert Hossary: I think that’s something I would have shared with my 30-year-old self as well. I love that. I’m not as articulate as you have been. I just, when people come up with those issues, I just say, the sun’s going to rise tomorrow. It’s the same thing. It is a season. You go through seasons of your life.
[00:34:49] Robert Hossary: People will come into your life for a period of time, then they’ll leave. and that’s okay. I, yeah, so know the season of your life, know that it will pass, know that it’s okay and enjoy the season you’re in, whether it’s a winter with all the snow that I’ve got, whether it’s, your youth, enjoy it.

[00:35:15] Lesson 7: Listen with Abandon.

[00:35:15] Robert Hossary: Love it. Okay. Let’s go to lesson number seven. Listen with abandon.
[00:35:22] Steve Scanlon: Yeah. I just didn’t,
[00:35:23] Steve Scanlon: I didn’t know.
[00:35:24] Robert Hossary: what I do.
[00:35:25] Steve Scanlon: yeah, I had no other way. I don’t know about the abandoned part, but now we’re getting into maybe a little bit more of a hard skill, but. Listening, I just, like I probably said to you, and I wrote a little bit about that, I felt a little strange about this one because your thing is called 10 Lessons Learned, and mine might be more aptly characterized as 10 Lessons Learning, right?
[00:35:53] Robert Hossary: We constantly learn, Steve. We constantly learn.
[00:35:57] Steve Scanlon: Yeah. but the past participle of that makes it sound like, oh, Steve Scanlon’s learned all this stuff. God, I hope my wife’s not, I hope my wife’s not here because, I think I’ve got, quite a way to go, with regard to, really deeply being able, to listen. And you can tell that one is also linked to being interested, practicing curiosity, but I think you pointed out co active listening is a wonderful skill. I was, my own coach taught me this quick thing. I’ll tell you a little anecdote, but he said one time to me, he said something to the effect of the, he said, the seven greatest words in the English language, right? And I was like, no, but I’m all ears. And so, I don’t know if they’re the seven greatest words strung together, but he said this, I was thinking about what you said. And he called that the seven greatest words in the English language, compiled like that. I was thinking about what you said. So, imagine as a leader or anybody else, if you are in any relationship, and you have a conversation, you do something and a little later on, you call them, you text them, you email them, And I was thinking about something you said.
[00:37:11] Steve Scanlon: It’s so amazing. first of all, you really honor people because it let them know you were thinking about them. And the other thing I like about, I was thinking about what you said is there’s a built-in authenticity. It’d be pretty tough to say that without actually thinking of something that they said. And so, I’ve been trying to practice that in my own company, and with, my kids, my family, and, but just, yeah, listen.
[00:37:39] Robert Hossary: I was thinking about what you said. There you go, people. you have an extra nugget, an extra lesson from Steve Scanlon. practice that, but you’re right, Steve. It is, it is important to be authentic and listening and then telling people that you’ve heard them, shows that authenticity as well.

[00:38:05] Lesson 8: Practice Silence

[00:38:05] Robert Hossary: I think that’s great. So, if we back it up with lesson number eight, they seem to go together, listen with abandon and lesson number eight. Practice silence.
[00:38:18] Steve Scanlon: Yeah. and again, maybe I’m not wise enough. You said the wisdom of Steve Scanlon. That made me shudder inside. Most people will recognize the fact that all of Steve Scanlon’s lessons were learned, not created by him, but learned from other people, right? So, I feel like at best, I’m just. Passing along wisdom that I have found, but anyway, I had someone point out to me that the word listen and the word silence, or silent, right?
[00:38:50] Steve Scanlon: Silent and listen are the same letters used.
[00:38:54] Robert Hossary: Anagram of each other.
[00:38:57] Steve Scanlon: Yeah, it’s not completely backwards, but they use the same letters. And so not only silent, like I’m going to pause and really listen to you, Robert. but even to the point where, you know, I, when I first heard about meditation as an example, the first time I heard that, I thought, Oh, here comes this hokey, huffy, puffy, I don’t know what that sounded like to me, but, I have subsequently studied quite a bit about meditation and, really the neuroscience behind it. Frankly, we owe a lot to the Dalai Lama because the Dalai Lama, called upon some of the greatest neuroscientific minds of the world to try to get to some science behind these monks, these Buddhist monks that were spending hours and hours of their life in silence. And as it turned out, they were, when they put these monks on brain scans, they had these unbelievable parts of their limbic system. That’s called the insular cortex or some of the insula. And, and it’s, it was, it’s this part of the brain that is attached to where we have emotions and stuff.
[00:40:05] Steve Scanlon: And when it’s really developed. Basically, that part of our brain gives us the ability to tell ourselves different stories. And when you have an undeveloped insula, you’re just always going to go down one path. And then when Dr. Richie Davidson and Daniel Goldman got a hold of this in 2000, I’m going to get that wrong too, 16, they wrote a book called Altered Traits. And so, anyone that’s interested in the neuroscience. Either Sharon Begley’s work or, Richie Davidson and, Daniel Goldman’s work, being silent and literally practicing stillness and silence, even for 10 minutes a day, literally changes our epigenetics and, it’s very powerful.
[00:40:53] Steve Scanlon: And I tell people, man, if you knew what I knew about meditation, you wouldn’t miss a day for the rest of your life.
[00:41:00] Robert Hossary: So, let me get this straight. Silence in this context doesn’t mean I’m not going to talk but I’m going podcast. Silence means I’m not going to talk. I am not going to be distracted by external forces. I’m just going to be. And that’s very difficult to do though, Steve, is to be in this world of TikTok, in this world of instant gratification, in this world of, I must know, the fear of not knowing, the FOMO.
[00:41:45] Robert Hossary: so how do we practice silence?
[00:41:51] Steve Scanlon: I think it’s a really wonderful question. the funny thing about silence is it couldn’t be simpler, but let’s you and I not confuse simplicity with ease, right? to, to literally, and again, these days there’s probably by now hundreds of apps, right? Applications, Insight timer, calm, I could lock these off, pick up a, that’s guided meditation.
[00:42:20] Steve Scanlon: Somebody’s walking you through, sit, put your feet on the floor, and just like you said, for even 10 minutes, be. Don’t do. Now, it’s anybody that does this for any period of time. And that’s why I put the verb there, practice. It’s not an easy task. And I would suggest to you that in the world of social media and TikTok, it couldn’t be more at a premium. It’s because the world is in this constant state of doing that we need to; I would think we would need to give our minds and our bodies and our souls a break. And again, I’m not sitting here asking people to go up on a mountain and spend three weeks in complete silence. Start with 10 minutes a day. And even when I share that with my clients and they practice it, you go be silent for 10 minutes.
[00:43:17] Steve Scanlon: And for many people, it’s incredibly unnerving, but again, and I’m not doing it just to create pain and suffering for people. I’m doing it because the neuroscience suggests that when we give our brain a break like that, we grow in some unbelievable ways. We might. We might listen to some things in our inner self that we hadn’t heard before, and maybe they’re hard to hear, but I think it’s, I think it’s the basis of some of the deepest growth that we can have as human beings.
[00:43:46] Robert Hossary: I agree. And what I will say to our audience is, yes, it seems like a long time, but believe me when I tell you that, it won’t take long before that 10 minutes turns into half an hour and you won’t even notice.it is that, the self-discovery you get gives it that much more emphasis in your life.
[00:44:13] Robert Hossary: Look, Steve, you’re singing to the choir as far as I’m concerned about silence. It’s just, I wanted to make sure that people understood what you meant by it.
[00:44:22] Robert Hossary: And it’s very important. It is very important to take time out, switch off.

[00:44:29] Lesson 9: Practice Sacrifice in perpetuity.

[00:44:29] Robert Hossary: All right, let’s go to lesson number nine. you’re going to need to walk us through this one too.
[00:44:34] Robert Hossary: So, lesson number nine, practice sacrifice in perpetuity.
[00:44:39] Steve Scanlon: I’m frequently asking the people in my organization, the question, what are you sacrificing? And I don’t know that we need to sacrifice everything we have. And I, I’m not saying that I just, I think some of the deepest growth for me anyway, has occurred when I’m at least taking one element of my life and not giving myself everything I want, everything I need.
[00:45:05] Steve Scanlon: I’m actually learning to give stuff up. And when we practice sacrificing in small ways, sometimes. Put your phone down for a half an hour and don’t look at, that’s a sacrifice. you know, some people practice this with food. Some people practice this with comfort on their couch. I, from my chair, I just don’t know how we grow without the willingness to sacrifice something.
[00:45:35] Robert Hossary: And to your point, we live in a get everything you want right now world. And that’s just the, call it a paradox. we all dream about getting everything we want, but if we ever did, we’d probably all be miserable. I don’t know, I don’t know what it is that you might have to sacrifice in your world. And I don’t know that it has to be everything all at once, but little acts of sacrifice. You, if I heard you correctly, I was thinking about something you said, about you meet a person who’s, ailing and you think about yourself, and it might be hard to go over there and so that would be a sacrifice to go over.
[00:46:15] Steve Scanlon: And actually, you can see that one in my definition of compassion, right? To be with someone who’s suffering. And but there’s all kinds of ways to practice this. And, as far as I know, every major faith tradition in the world practices some level of sacrifice.
[00:46:33] Robert Hossary: Yes, look, sacrificing, doesn’t need to be dramatic. and I think Steve’s pointed that out. we’re not talking about, a huge life changing event. What we’re talking about is a strengthening of character.
[00:46:51] Steve Scanlon: sacrifice something that is important to you. For an hour, a day, a week, a lifetime, whatever it is that you, you choose to do, that sacrifice builds character.
[00:47:09] Robert Hossary: it shows you that what is important, what is not. we’ve all got examples of it. I’ve got tons of examples of it. but sacrificing Yeah, that word is not as, as dramatic and as fearful as we’ve been led to believe. It can be good. And it can be healthy. and it teaches, I think we discussed this before, it teaches humility.
[00:47:39] Robert Hossary: it teaches you a lot. To be able to sacrifice something, even if it’s your time,
[00:47:45] Robert Hossary: sacrifice some of your time and go and help someone else go to a soup kitchen. Steve sacrifices a lot of his time. I sacrifice a lot of my time for charity work. It’s, it hasn’t killed us. So, the word sacrifice is not as dramatic as you may think, but I think that is.
[00:48:08] Robert Hossary: Interesting, but what caught my attention, Steve, was the in perpetuity.
[00:48:15] Steve Scanlon: it’s continual. It’s continual. We’re doing, we’re going to do it perpetually. We’re going to do it. I’m not going to be done doing that. That’s what I meant by that. There isn’t like I did that and now I’m going to, I’m going to go into a season where I’m not doing that. I move from maybe small little sacrifice to small little sacrifice.
[00:48:35] Steve Scanlon: And there’s always something in my life that I’m thinking about where I need to

[00:48:39] Lesson 10: Transcend and include.

[00:48:39] Robert Hossary: All right. 10 lessons. This is lesson number 10. And this is the, yeah, I will have one more for you after this, but lesson number 10, transcend and include. Now you’re the one that sounds like the Dalai Lama with that. What is transcend and include mean?
[00:48:59] Steve Scanlon: again, I have to give credit where credit’s due. Anyone around the world that’s listening to this, there is a, I don’t even know about famous. There’s a, a gentleman around here that I’ve been following for years and years. He is a. Franciscan priest. He lives in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
[00:49:13] Steve Scanlon: His name is Richard Rohr, and Richard Rohr taught me this lesson, and I, I saved probably the most difficult for last because this is not one that, this isn’t wisdom from me, first of all, and this is certainly something that I continue to, know that I’m a novice at, so transcend.
[00:49:33] Steve Scanlon: I believe that because of the seasons of life and really stages of life, I think we are meant to develop, as we develop, we transcend, we go beyond the last stage first of all, you won’t go to another stage until the stage you’re at breaks
[00:49:49] Steve Scanlon: until it doesn’t work for you anymore. And then if we can grow through that, we transcend. The thing about it is we need to include the people that are still in that stage, or we haven’t transcended. And again, as my coach puts it, that’s a ring in my tree too. So, it’s pretty easy to feel like, wow, I’ve developed, I have this new thinking. Those people think like that still. Get how I’m othering? And so, to go beyond the thinking that I was at and transcend and grow and develop. But remember to include the people that still are going to grow and develop and, hopefully, and again, I really think about my coach.
[00:50:36] Steve Scanlon: I think he has transcended and he’s in such a season, you should have him on your show. But he is in such a great season of life, and I know I’m not there. I can, I don’t listen well enough yet. I’m still practicing how to be silent. I’m not there. And I, he so gently includes me where he could easily dismiss me and go, you know, about all this stuff and you’re not doing it.
[00:51:01] Steve Scanlon: And so, I think Jack, my coach, does a really wonderful job of transcending, but including me. because he knows he was where I was and where I am was a ring in his tree too. And so that’s what I mean by transcendent include. And that whole concept is a Richard Rohr concept, which, by the way, he has a wonderful talk about the nine stages of life that he borrowed. That’s, that’s from the concept of spiral dynamics. And he gave a wonderful talk in Sydney, Australia, mind you, years ago. And you can probably find that online, but his nine stages of life and in each stage in order to get there, we know we’re at a new stage when we’ve included the stage before us,
[00:51:46] Robert Hossary: I’ve got a question for you on this. How do I include someone from a period that I’ve transcended from if they don’t want to be included?
[00:51:58] Robert Hossary: we said at the beginning that the world is divisive.
[00:52:01] Robert Hossary: And it is, and it’s getting worse. we’ve got the, this instant gratification, culture that we’re living in. We’ve also got the people who believe what they think. So, everything that we’ve discussed now, you’re going to have people who are doing the exact opposite of all of that. How do I include them if they’re in that period?
[00:52:26] Steve Scanlon: I suppose that you can only sweep your side of the street. You, including them, they still have a choice. You’re not, if you transcend, you’re not yanking them by the head up to your stage, you’re listening. We’re going back and going through some of my other lessons. We’re not othering, we’re listening.
[00:52:49] Steve Scanlon: We’re practicing curiosity. Then at that point, they choose whether or not they want to develop and grow.
[00:52:56] Robert Hossary: But from your point of view, you include.
[00:53:01] Steve Scanlon: That’s exactly right.
[00:53:03] Steve Scanlon: all I can do is do my best to include those who. are going through whatever season they’re going through. Look, I’ve got grandkids. My three-year-old grandson, as it turns out, isn’t, he screams, he cries, he kicks, and as it, imagine going to that person and going, come on, grow up! But we accept that, and we like, yeah, that’s the season of life he’s in.
[00:53:29] Robert Hossary: that is a
[00:53:31] Steve Scanlon: we learned,
[00:53:31] Robert Hossary: example.
[00:53:32] Steve Scanlon: yeah, we learned to do that as parents. And I just think that’s a lesson that we can learn in every stage of life.
[00:53:41] Robert Hossary: Absolutely. And what a great example of this lesson. You’ve transcended. Include them. I love this. It’s, what I’ve seen with all your 10 lessons, Steve, is this is a lifestyle. Your 10 lessons are a lifestyle. They’re all nuggets on their own, but together. It just forms the basis of a beautiful lifestyle.
[00:54:14] Robert Hossary: before we sign off, let me ask you,
[00:54:16] Steve Scanlon: Steve, where can we find you? Tell us about the Insight Interviews podcast.
[00:54:20] Steve Scanlon: Yeah, my business partner and I, his name is Jason Abel. He and I own Rewire Inc. And so, anybody can find us at Rewire Inc. I’m incredibly findable on LinkedIn. That’s, I guess that’s the one social media that I do. I don’t participate in a whole lot of the other ones, so I’m pretty easy to find on LinkedIn.
[00:54:46] Steve Scanlon: you can find, on Spotify or iTunes or wherever you can find the inside interviews. Where we interview people from all over the world as well. but rewire inc. com. our website, can email me, I don’t try to hide. and so, yeah, I, I, would love to engage with people and. And anybody that wants to know more about what we do at Rewire, I’m, it’s my passion, it’s my life, and I’m happy to, be there for people.
[00:55:18] Robert Hossary: Fantastic. thank you. And with that we’ll finish here today. You’ve been listening to 10 Lessons Learned.
[00:55:24] Robert Hossary: Our guest today is Steve Scanlon sharing his. This episode is supported as always by the Professional Development Forum. please tell us what you think about today’s lessons. You can email us at podcast at 10lessonslearned. com. Go ahead, hit that subscribe button, leave us a review, turn on that notification bell, to make sure that you don’t miss another episode of the only show that makes the world wiser, lesson by lesson.
[00:55:52] Robert Hossary: Thanks, see you next episode, and remember, don’t Always believe what you think.
[00:55:57] Steve Scanlon: you. Great being with you.

Thanks to our 10 Lessons team that make our show possible: Our Episode Editor Codie Comeau, Marketing and social media managed by Yi Wang, and our Producer Robert Hossary. Sponsored as always by Professional Development Forum. You can find the www.professionaldevelopmentforum.org.

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