Huw Thomas – From Challenges to Change: Lessons in Leadership

[00:00:08] Jeffery Wang: Hello and welcome to 10 Lessons Learned, where we discern wisdom for career, business, and life. In other words, valuable insights that you can’t find in a textbook because it took us years to learn this stuff. My name is Jeffrey Wang, the founder of Professional Development Forum and your host today.
[00:00:23] Jeffery Wang: This podcast is sponsored by the Professional Development Forum, which helps diverse young professionals find fulfillment in the modern workplace. Today we’re joined by Huw Thomas. Huw is a professional speaker, executive mentor, and an expert in transformational change. He has worked with almost a hundred organizations across a multitude of industries, including media, banking, NFPs, pharmaceuticals, and public service.
[00:00:51] Jeffery Wang: After years at a top tier consulting firm, he led the scaling of several boutique firms, including a five times revenue growth of one start up. Huw also serves as a practicing non-executive company director and chair.
[00:01:05] Jeffery Wang: Welcome to the show, Huw. I’ve been looking forward to this interview.
[00:01:08] Huw Thomas: Thanks very much, Jeff. Glad to be here. Love your show.
[00:01:11] Jeffery Wang: Thank you. I particularly enjoyed your public commentary and insights on LinkedIn, especially on the part of, leadership or, or more sadly, the lack of, especially when it comes to, organizational and transformational change. I suspect that we have a bit of commonality when it comes to, our worldviews, as we both lament, the lack of leadership that we think the world needs today.
[00:01:35] Huw Thomas: Yeah, I think leadership’s in demand and it’s not easy my approach to helping People become better leaders and helping organizations is really to meet them where they’re at and acknowledge that it’s difficult and that not everyone wants to do it and it doesn’t come naturally to us all.
[00:01:52] Huw Thomas: we sort of got to have a bit of a kick behind us to get us to step up to it sometimes and think differently so that we can have a big impact and get the outcomes we need.
[00:02:01] Jeffery Wang: Indeed. Now, transformational change, you’re an expert in transformational change. What is transformational change and why is it so important for leaders to be able to execute transformational change?
[00:02:14] Huw Thomas: Yeah, I think organizations today, Transforming almost on a permanent basis. Some go through a specific transformation which might take three to five years, like a digital transformation where they’re switching to serve their customers more through digital channels and portals rather than through call centres and shop fronts.
[00:02:33] Huw Thomas: And that’s something which has been going on for quite a number of years, since the e commerce boom. and. And the boom of digital and social media but there are all sorts of other reasons why organizations transform. Often, it’s through their workforce structure. Or building an entire new business and running it parallel to an old one, knowing that that old business is going to be redundant and irrelevant in the next decade. So, they’re getting ready for that and trying to transition everyone into those businesses.
[00:03:00] Huw Thomas: So I think What I try and help leaders see, particularly in the strategy type of work I do, is to see these things coming and be clued into what I call having a global focus, which is not necessarily just around the world, but a bigger thinking focus than just, what’s right in front of you.
[00:03:16] Huw Thomas: looking at industry forces and government regulation and change and trends in society and culture and try and get ready for what’s coming.
[00:03:24] Jeffery Wang: But it’s a lot more than just the how, isn’t it? A lot of it comes down to the why and understanding, the reasons why organizations must make these, you know, transformational change. And these are massive decisions or undertakings, you know, obviously with a whole lot of risk.
[00:03:42] Huw Thomas: And look, I think it’s the why and the how. I often say with organizations, they kind of know what they need to do, and they often know why they need to do it, but they really struggle with how to get it done. I help them with, the methodology, the process the thinking, the leadership, the understanding of change, and, creating a behavior change at scale, getting, hundreds or thousands of people to understand. Why they need to change, why the status quo isn’t going to work anymore. So, the why is obviously a good starting point and very powerful. But actually, changing hundreds and thousands of people’s habits and what they do every day is a pretty big challenge it’s a sought-after skill set, and a hard thing for a lot of leaders.

[00:04:20] Lesson 1: Think and Dream Big

[00:04:20] Jeffery Wang: Well, that was to warm you up. So, without further ado, I’d love to jump into your lessons. speaking of transformational change, lesson number one, think and dream big, you say.
[00:04:32] Huw Thomas: Yeah, I love this one. I think it’s one of the most important hints, it’s number one. I try and do this myself. I try and practice it. I try and teach and get my coaching clients to do this and clients, organizations that I work with, to think beyond what they currently think of their limitations and to get out of self-imposed limiting beliefs and think big. the part of the reason, where this started for me is, I was probably thinking small when I was a school kid My dad came and visited me, he was working overseas at the time, and he came and watched me play our first 15 rugby game. he told me he was proud of me afterwards, and handed me this book, called The Magic of Thinking Big by David Schwartz. And it was dog eared, looked like it was about 20, 30 years old or something, and it had obviously served him well, he said, whatever you do in life, son, always try and think big. I ignored it at the time, and I left the book on the bookshelf gathering dust for a year or so and I finally picked it up and I was just amazed it. talked about goal setting and Setting your goals really big that’s the main thing which separates successful people from unsuccessful people And I got obsessed with that kind of thing and it was really what I needed at that point in time and made me really step up my thinking around life and take ownership and, and realize that I could pretty much do anything I want if I set my heart to it put plans in place to achieve it and work hard at it. so that’s, where it started. I’ve always tried to take risks think big and even if I’m afraid of something, just do it anyway. If I can see that there’s some benefit on the other side of it, or it’s going to make me a better person, a more skilful leader, a more skilful consultant, or a better person in general, I’ll have a crack at it. And I try and sort of share that with my clients and people I work with.
[00:06:10] Jeffery Wang: Yeah, well, it makes sense when you dream big and you can see it in front of you, you can usually make it happen. It also becomes a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[00:06:19] Lesson 2: Seek Adversity and Discomfort

[00:06:19] Jeffery Wang: Okay, well, I think that leads very well into number two, Seek adversity and discomfort.
[00:06:23] Huw Thomas: Yeah, I think that’s part and parcel of thinking big some people have dreams, and they think about them, or they dream about them, and they don’t do anything about it is because they are afraid of what can go wrong. They, start experiencing discomfort when they’re in an unfamiliar space, unfamiliar territory. And the sort of default thinking we’ll often have is to go with the path of least resistance and shy away from that because we’re worried about embarrassment failure or, our ego being damaged I think early in life, like I see my kids, they don’t have that.
[00:06:55] Huw Thomas: They’re just willing to dive in and learn and fail and they don’t get embarrassed they’ll sing out loud and dance around and have a crack at things. but we, you know, when you hit your teens, and you suddenly just want to fit in with everyone. So,
[00:07:08] Jeffery Wang: That’s So, true, isn’t it? when you’re young, like before you become self-conscious, you are the best version of yourself, isn’t it? And, and I, yeah, now that you mentioned, and so, so what happens in our teenage years that made us so afraid? What, what, what make us so, what makes us so risk averse to become different to others in those years?
[00:07:28] Huw Thomas: Yeah, I’m a big fan of evolutionary psychology the way, we do what we do is built into us through our DNA evolutionary psychologists will tell you most of what we do comes down to two or three things.
[00:07:38] Huw Thomas: One is the need to survive, so we’re trying to stay alive. another is the need to procreate and keep the species going. linked to those two things is the need for social acceptance. We want to be accepted into a group, in a tribe, by a partner. And that helps, that, that need we have within us is something which helped humans survive.
[00:07:57] Huw Thomas: So, it’s innate for us to try and fit in and be accepted. the thing is when we step outside that and go beyond our comfort zone, we worry about embarrassment and failure, and I think it sort of hurts our ego a little bit.
[00:08:09] Jeffery Wang: and it seems like this is a tool that we’ve developed in evolutionary biology in order for us to survive because, back in the days when we were animals, you need to be part of that tribe to survive and so that social acceptance is not just desired but necessary for survival if you’re excluded from the herd.
[00:08:28] Huw Thomas: that’s right.
[00:08:29] Jeffery Wang: unfortunately, a lot of that prevents us from being the best version of ourselves. We should be standing out and, as you said, think and dream big.
[00:08:36] Huw Thomas: still within humans as well ever since those, premodern days humans had to take risks, they had to deal with pain, and humans are able to overcome it.
[00:08:45] Jeffery Wang: Hmm.
[00:08:46] Huw Thomas: able to go on adventures, take risks, put our lives in danger and reap the benefits of that.
[00:08:52] Huw Thomas: And humans have always done that. and so, I guess there were always people that were willing to take those kinds of risks, leaders within tribes and things like that. And that’s still the case today.
[00:09:00] Huw Thomas: And I think today though, anyone can be that. You don’t have to be the strongest person in the tribe. You can just be. Someone who’s willing to have a go. things are kind of evened out with technology in our modern world, our civilized world.
[00:09:14] Huw Thomas: So, I think we can deal with adversity, and I think often adversity. gets thrown at us whether we like it or not. We don’t have to seek it out.
[00:09:21] Huw Thomas: One of the pivotal moments in my life was when I had a tumour in my spine about 20 years ago and caused incredible pain for several months. And eventually they found out what it was with an MRI, and I had to have an operation. the day after the operation my grandma died, and I was really close with her. It was this sort of tough period, and I had to cancel this overseas trip I was on during the process, and it was this, you know, it sounds like a sob story, but, it was a transformational moment for me, afterwards, I didn’t take my health for granted, I realized that, bad things happen, and you come out the other side suffering doesn’t have to continue beyond these painful periods, you can come out a better, stronger, wiser person as a result, you don’t always want to strive and get too much of, like in terms of tragedy and things like that.
[00:10:04] Huw Thomas: But when you experience a painful episode in life, how you see it and what you take away from it is really up to you as well.
[00:10:12] Jeffery Wang: So is it the case of whatever don’t kill you makes you stronger, you know, that the anti-fragile nature of human beings or is it more a case of perspective? with your mortality in mind, little risks don’t seem to be such a big deal anymore.
[00:10:29] Huw Thomas: Hmm.
[00:10:30] Jeffery Wang: what do you think it is?
[00:10:31] Huw Thomas: Yeah, I think there’s a degree of that. Whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. and I think our society has fallen into a bit of a comfort zone,
[00:10:39] Jeffery Wang: Hmm.
[00:10:41] Huw Thomas: We kind of embrace the easy life and everyone’s sort of looking for that I think it softens us up a bit.
[00:10:48] Huw Thomas: And, you know, and I don’t have that hardest life by any means. I don’t have, there’s plenty of people I know who are experiencing more challenge than me. So, and that’s almost, for me, it’s a motivator to get out of the easy suburban corporate life that I live mostly and do hard things.
[00:11:02] Huw Thomas: I try and do that.
[00:11:04] Jeffery Wang: Hmm.
[00:11:04] Huw Thomas: to remind myself that I can do it Jocko Willink, the ex-marine and great podcaster and writer always says, there’s no comfort in the growth zone and no growth in the comfort zone. And I think that’s right. It’s like sort of exercising your muscles.
[00:11:19] Huw Thomas: It’s like you don’t really start building muscle until you start feeling the pain and the burn. same when you’re running, you don’t build your fitness until you get that pain feeling, you got to keep going, and that’s when you really get the benefits. so, I think that’s what happens, but it, that’s only if we see it that way.
[00:11:34] Huw Thomas: A lot of it is our belief around it. Plenty of people experience hard things. They see it as a terrible event that’s got nothing good about it, and they’re not going to come out stronger. They see it as something which has beaten them down, and they feel like a victim, and that’s a terrible thing for them, and they don’t see it in the right way.
[00:11:50] Huw Thomas: And it might be, you know, it is a painful thing.
[00:11:52] Huw Thomas: But you have to see, okay, well it’s happened, it was out of my control, but I’m going to take this away from it.
[00:11:58] Jeffery Wang: Oh, 100%. And I like what you said about, not seeing yourself as a victim. I do happen to subscribe to that particular belief as well because, having grown up in the Western world as a minority, often we’re, made to be more aware than, most people generally are of how different they are.
[00:12:15] Jeffery Wang: But that experience of being different, could have very easily gone the other way, and be seen as, oh, woe is me, I’m doing it so much tougher. that could explain why I was never, as successful or whatever. But it could also be. I could also choose to say, well, that’s the character defining moment is because I have been, you know, through the grindstone, through all the hardships, and hence I’m stronger and tougher than I would otherwise have been.
[00:12:42] Jeffery Wang: Yeah, so that is indeed a very important mindset shift that I think a lot of us need to make. and just going back to your point about perspective too, we are perhaps the most comfortable generation ever, I would say the average person today probably has a better life than potentially, some of the richest people back a hundred years ago, even, the fact that we’ve got, in our pockets, you can stream from a library of songs, beyond your wildest dreams, even just 20 years ago.
[00:13:11] Jeffery Wang: You just compare that to, you know, I guess life in the, the turn, the turn of the 20th century and yeah,
[00:13:19] Huw Thomas: Yeah,
[00:13:20] Jeffery Wang: they couldn’t even fly. so that’s, perspective for you.
[00:13:23] Huw Thomas: absolutely. There’s always someone worse off for you today as well. And I think the comedian Louis C. K. once said, when talking about the modern world and how everyone takes it for granted, all the great things about it. He described it as; everything is awesome, and everyone is miserable. when everything is easy and you know, you’ve got everything at your fingertips, that it isn’t necessarily great for your mental health and wellbeing. overcoming challenges helps our wellbeing. And I know a psychiatrist, a clinical psychiatrist, who was also our leadership coach for many years. And he once told me about the, the kind of people he was getting in and seeing in his clinical practice. And it was often people who you’re not afraid to leave the house or afraid of had challenging relationships and their resilience was really, really, low. And generally, the, the therapy or. A response to that would be to encourage that person to take on bigger and bigger challenges, but gradually.
[00:14:16] Huw Thomas: So, nothing too massive so that they would break them and scare them or overwhelm them, but get them to, you know, take one step at a time. And that’s, a really good way to improve yourself, is to just gradually improve, gradually take on new and small challenges or gradually stretch yourself in any one challenge. and then over time, I think that’s how you get better.
[00:14:37] Jeffery Wang: I think there’s a lot of wisdom there that we probably should unpack.

[00:14:40] Lesson 3: Be Sceptical About Fads and Bad Ideas

[00:14:40] Jeffery Wang: we’re going to move on to lesson number three. I love this one because you say to be sceptical about fads and bad ideas. Now, I know there’s a lot of fads in management. suddenly there’s a whole lot of bad ideas that probably gets a lot more, attention that they should.
[00:14:56] Jeffery Wang: what do you mean by be sceptical about fads and bad ideas and what are they?
[00:15:01] Huw Thomas: Yeah, Jeff, I know you and I see plenty of them on LinkedIn a fair bit, so you’ve only got to scroll through and you see these things and everyone’s liking them and everyone joins in and I think, there’s a frenetic pace in the corporate world where people don’t always have time to think that well.
[00:15:16] Huw Thomas: if this is the latest thing, everyone jumps on board and feels they’ve got to Get along with the team and follow where it’s going. there’s a degree of followership in that, which can be a good leadership trait, you’ve got to be part of the team. You don’t want to be constantly going against the grain in a big organization. But there is a bit of a culture of conformity and groupthink in organizations and our societies. social media even creates these vacuum chambers where people always end up in and seeing their things they want. And if you disagree with something, you know, you get shouted at in the comments and then shy away from that thing again or that person or group. so, these things, this is what sort of divides us a little bit. but I think the fads, the risk with them is you’ve got to ask yourself, well, is this right for me? Or if you’re an organization and there’s new technology or futurists telling you this is going to be the next big thing and it’s going to change everything in the next three years and you’ve sort of got to go, well, is that really the case?
[00:16:07] Huw Thomas: What evidence of that is there? is it something we need to be worried about and doing something about or is it not? humans have advanced a great deal over, over time. You know, a long, long period in history, and there’s so much knowledge and wisdom in the past that we sort of ignore, like the Stoic philosophers of 2, 000 years ago, Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, and Co. there’s so much wisdom in that, when I read that stuff, I just wish, people would pay more attention to that than to the Latest, 18-year-old on Twitter who’s got some fancy idea I’m all for progressive thinking and change and new ideas, but you have to understand what came before you and why things are the way they are, whether that’s in your organization or in broader society. knowing. how we got to where we are is really equally important as knowing where we’re going. FADS and what everyone else is doing isn’t necessarily the right thing for you. And you’ve got to work out, well, what are, what am I trying to achieve? and what are the options I have to get there as quickly as possible, at the lowest possible cost, and to be as effective as possible. And then think about, well, what do I need to do there, and that new fad or thing may not be something that’s going to help you. It might just be a distraction from what you’re really trying to achieve.
[00:17:20] Jeffery Wang: Yeah, it’s really difficult though. I think you illustrated a couple of examples, with these, 18-year-old on, you said Twitter, these are people who scream the loudest and they seem to get the validation because they, get a lot of airtime and attention.
[00:17:32] Jeffery Wang: And I think we mistake that. For, being right,
[00:17:35] Huw Thomas: They’re nice things that people hear and it’s like a soundbite of 10 seconds, you know, in a story on a tick tock.
[00:17:42] Jeffery Wang: if you take a minute to think about it, it’s not what it seems. I can give you a real-life example, where I used to work in a large, corporation, and, and I’m guessing it’s either Bain or BCGEO. One of those consulting firms has been through the top.
[00:17:56] Jeffery Wang: you can see the slides coming down in that particular style. I started seeing, this slide where they begin with a North Star, North Star is great. we know exactly where we’re headed. but before long, we started seeing different variations of the same slide.
[00:18:09] Jeffery Wang: here’s our, two North Stars. Here’s our four North Stars. Here’s our six North Stars. And then I sort of sit back and go, hang on. I’m not even sure if they knew the irony in all this, but North Star , as you know, it’s, it’s the point of having a North star. So, it points north and it’s exactly where you are now.
[00:18:29] Jeffery Wang: I know if you are an astrophysicist, you’re probably telling me it’s actually three giant stars roughly in the same direction. But the reality is to naked eye, you can only see one. Right? So, so there is one North Star, and that’s the point of actually having a North Star. So, you can orient towards and.
[00:18:44] Jeffery Wang: it makes me question the psychology behind these people adopting these fads, these north stars on these slides, they’ve gone around for a couple of months. the fact is that they’ve gone throughout the organization with the same set of, ridiculous assertions of priority when there is none.
[00:19:01] Jeffery Wang: when you have four North Stars, you’re completely missing the point of having that slide. how does it Get to that point where, people get so drawn up on these fads, and it’s almost, it’s almost a career suicide if you were to speak up and just go, oh.
[00:19:17] Huw Thomas: I think in large organizations, it’s almost unavoidable because they don’t go anywhere unless people agree quickly, and they get stuck. that’s why startups and small organizations have an advantage there’s more exchange of ideas and debate and fresh thinking and creativity.
[00:19:33] Huw Thomas: It’s embraced because you can afford to. And they actually do differentiate and succeed based on those ideas and creative thinking large organizations compete on their efficiency of processes predictability and everyone going in the same direction.
[00:19:47] Huw Thomas: So, it’s almost built into the design of them. It’s quite hard to avoid, unfortunately, I think. some organizations, I’m sure, do it better than others. Some of the Big tech firms who have, been around maybe a couple of decades try and maintain their original culture like the Netflix’s, Amazon’s and maintain that speed and that critical thinking. and that spirit of debate, they have that built into their cultural sort of memes and manifestos but many older organizations, tend to lose that and it becomes pretty challenging.
[00:20:18] Jeffery Wang: Oh, indeed.
[00:20:19] Jeffery Wang: So it’s an element of culture, it’s an element of individual, courage as well, when you see a fad that, doesn’t quite align with the age or wisdom But how do you find the courage to something out as a fad if you were to see one?
[00:20:36] Huw Thomas: Yeah, I try and, the way I try and do it is break it down into, into something useful. So, if someone’s talking about even some AI app or something like that and saying, oh, this thing can do this. I’d say, okay, well, how does that help you? Our strategic priorities and how might we implement that what part of our business would that, you know, resolve a problem?
[00:20:58] Huw Thomas: Where would the opportunity be? And break it down from the kind of the abstract, sexy sounding, new shiny ball, if you like, that everyone’s chasing into something. What is it? How does it fit in with what we’re trying to actually do here? And just asking those kinds of questions rather than just dismiss it, but sort of get people to really think it through.
[00:21:15] Huw Thomas: And I think that’s the kind of critical thinking, the analytical thinking. I always try and help clients with that, when facilitating workshops to challenge them on ideas. often, you’ll hear in a strategy day, lots of ideas. we should do this; we should do that. And I go, well, you probably can’t do all of it, and how are you going to do that?
[00:21:32] Huw Thomas: And where are you going to sacrifice your resources to make space for that? often you find that shiny new thing just gets talked about and there’s not much space for it because they eventually realize that there’s far more important things and more priorities that they’ve got to take care of first.
[00:21:45] Jeffery Wang: for me, that shiny new thing is DEI, right? I mean, diversity, equity and inclusion. people talk about it like it’s gospel look, I believed in the idea once, it’s not until you see it in practice that you realize it’s not what it cracked out to be and often comes unintentionally at the expense of meritocracy.
[00:22:03] Jeffery Wang: all you’ve done is replaced nepotism with a different sort of nepotism based on physical characteristics, with very little consideration to the why, which is, to essentially get new ideas, innovations, and, and,
[00:22:15] Jeffery Wang: and find, talent where your competition isn’t, how do you challenge an idea like DEI where it’s almost got like a bit of a cult like following.
[00:22:25] Jeffery Wang: And cult like adherence to some of the stuff that is just, quite frankly, batshit crazy.
[00:22:30] Huw Thomas: I gave a lecture about diversity and inclusion for a bunch of MBA students at my old university about 10 years ago. the message I was giving was, and examples I was giving were, were about, you know, diversity of thinking and backgrounds and how it improves business performance and how it can create ideas and creative tension. And all that thing, and it could be people from different cultural backgrounds or, you know, having a balanced gendered team, reasonably balanced, not necessarily balanced in 50 50, but having at least a few of each gender and a few people from, at least different backgrounds you can get hold of in a room when you’re making certain decisions and the value of that. but it was never, for me it was never about quotas and, I guess, ideology. And I think that’s, that’s where it’s gone a little bit. which is unfortunate. I think it’s not as shiny and new as it used to be. a lot of that gloss is starting to wear off and people have gotten frustrated about it.
[00:23:25] Huw Thomas: because I think many of our organizations have always had pretty inclusive cultures. I know there’s some that probably don’t, and I know there’s pockets of problems, but we just live in a diverse society, and everyone’s just so used to it now in, much of the Western world, I feel like we’ve almost achieved a lot of the goals of DEI. Without the help of DEI departments, it’s just people naturally showing goodwill to each other. I’m pretty optimistic about that. I think generally, you don’t need the lectures about it and a team of people specializing in it. if there is a problem where people are struggling in an organization, maybe there’s a case to get some outside help
[00:24:01] Huw Thomas: But yeah, I think it, has struggled a bit lately. And I remember even when I worked at a big global consulting firm, about 15 years ago, we had to work with teams in India.
[00:24:10] Jeffery Wang: Hmm.
[00:24:11] Huw Thomas: I work with American teams and teams in Asia and sort of really global firm and but nearly half the local office was expats from different countries, and we used to get cultural awareness training.
[00:24:21] Huw Thomas: I found it quite useful, and I always thought that was more useful and this is probably before DEI was even talked about and I found that really practical. Like they talk about Indian culture and I’m like, oh, I get it now. I don’t understand why they’re behaving like that. And I need to be mindful of that when we’re talking about things and making decisions.
[00:24:38] Huw Thomas: And so, it was practical and useful and helped me build better working relationships with people. I found that more practical and useful in a business sense and an interpersonal sense than people saying, we need quotas and unconscious bias training. And by the way, there’s, there’s some studies have come out showing that unconscious bias training, actually fails.
[00:24:56] Huw Thomas: It hasn’t. created, removed any unconscious biases in organizations. I think there’s actually been a reverse effect in some of the organizations that were studied. So, some of those interventions are starting to get proved because there’s enough data for a lot of these university studies to show that they weren’t working.

[00:25:12] Lesson 4: To Be Exceptional, You Must Stand Out and Be Different

[00:25:12] Jeffery Wang: So, thanks for that. moving on to lesson number four, to be exceptional, you must stand out and be different.
[00:25:17] Huw Thomas: I like this one as well. This, this, well, I like all of them because they’re my 10 lessons, I suppose, but I think, this one’s again, it sort of links with some of the earlier lessons as well. but this one’s a real, I think I’ve experienced a lot of personal benefit of this and it’s still a journey for me.
[00:25:31] Huw Thomas: I think there’s still more of, this to go with me. I think it’s something which you kind of go on your entire life is actually being comfortable, putting yourself out there and being yourself and not trying to follow any social pretences or fit in too much. and as we get older, we get more comfortable doing that. So, I know I’m not saying I’ve mastered this and it’s perfect, but it definitely is something I’ve worked on the last decade. and I guess the key message here is if, I’ve always, my motto lately is, you know, if you think and act like the average, you’ll fit in, but you’ll experience only average results. And so, you know, I found in my career, whenever I let go of the fear of standing out and fear of what friends or co-workers or family or others thought, I started experiencing more career success and I felt more respected and I felt like my voice mattered more. It was unique and it stood out in a crowd because I think people value difference and uniqueness. And even if they don’t always consciously realize it and show it, it makes you more interesting to people. Then, you know, if you sound the same and as the last person I talked to, you’re not that interesting, but if you sound, unique, and we all are unique. I think we stick again, as we said that, you know, we stick with that conformity because it’s safe. When you aren’t afraid to challenge people and challenge that status quo, and when you bring more of your sort of essence into a team, an organization, a friendship, a relationship, but you allow others to do that as well, it’s got to be a two way street, then I think you have better relationships, you’re a better team member, you’re more valuable to people than if you’re just trying to, you know, replicate what someone else is bringing.
[00:27:07] Jeffery Wang: But how do you find that, confidence to, I suppose, be yourself, right? you almost got to take a leap of faith, at the beginning, don’t you? Because you don’t know how people are going to respond. And, and I think what you’ve described, I’ve gone through as well, you know, which is to spend, you know, best part of my formative years trying to fit in, trying to, I suppose, act in the way that I was socialized at school and, in the way that we know is, acceptable.
[00:27:34] Huw Thomas: Hmm.
[00:27:35] Jeffery Wang: so how, how do we, how do we find that courage to have that voice to speak out and, demonstrate our value?
[00:27:42] Huw Thomas: Yeah. I know, I know some, some people always say, oh, you have to act and not care about what anyone thinks. And I think that’s kind of unrealistic, but it’s sort of true to a degree. You have to, you have to, and I wouldn’t say not care what people think. I think you have to be conscious of how people will perceive things you do and say, and how things are going to be received.
[00:28:03] Huw Thomas: But you’ve also got to be confident that just expressing your view or being yourself there’s nothing wrong with it. And, and even if someone disagrees, there’s nothing wrong with that. And it’s not going to be catastrophic. Or if someone doesn’t like you because of something you said. That you sort of just let go of that need for someone to like you and for, or a need you have for someone to agree with you.
[00:28:28] Huw Thomas: And just know that by putting your views out in the world, you’re probably adding more value to people than keeping them to yourself. And so, I always try and see it as like a service to other people. To share my unique thinking because probably more often than not, it’s going to help someone or someone might be interested or find it useful and different and, and, and appreciate it.
[00:28:51] Huw Thomas: Whereas if I’m just keeping it to myself, then I’m sort of doing them a disservice because they’re not getting anything out of me other than me saying whatever everyone else is saying. So, I guess in that sense, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of a selfless act. If you frame it that way, but it’s also, beneficial to you because, you know, I think you’ll get the attention and, interest in what you’re saying and you, and you’ll probably, you know, stand out.

[00:29:15] Lesson 5: Tolerance of Uncertainty Is a Leadership Superpower

[00:29:15] Jeffery Wang: And I think that’s a great segue because, lesson number five, Tolerance of uncertainty is a leadership superpower.
[00:29:23] Huw Thomas: Oh, a lot of uncertainty. And I think that brings a lot of fear to people, and people let it induce fear. But in organizations that I work in, people are afraid to adopt bold strategy, I think, a lot of the time. They’d rather go with the tried and tested, the things that they are familiar with, and rather than implement big changes.
[00:29:50] Huw Thomas: And when they do try and implement big changes, Often I think a lot of organizations experience a lot of resistance and that’s normal. And I just see that as a normal thing. It’s like, okay, we’re just going to work through it. And we have to have lots of conversations and share context and, and I think people get really burnt out on it though. but the most successful people I see are, you know, can work through that constantly. And I’ve, I’ve done that in my career. I’ve been working change and transformation for 15 plus years. And yeah. different projects, many different clients and organizations and industries and I, I get off on the uncertainty and diving into a new organization and starting this business I started and that sort of just building things from scratch and that creativity.
[00:30:35] Huw Thomas: but I think, you know, when, when change hits, I think a lot of people really do struggle with it and they see, they immediately default to that fear and of uncertainty, rather than seeing it as an exciting opportunity. And for me, it’s, it’s, again, it’s just how you frame it, how you, what beliefs you adopt. And if you adopt a constructive belief, like there’s a lot you can control, which is your thinking is a lot you can influence, which is your behavior and other people in any given situation, then you can really mold these, you know, uncertain times into, into something which is going to benefit you. and I think people are just crying out for that kind of leadership through uncertainty as well.
[00:31:14] Jeffery Wang: I think we definitely are heading into more and more uncertainty. as, as we speak, you know, yeah, there seems to be a, A strange world, you know, like, I think almost 20, 30 years ago, you know, when we’re sort of in our formative years, you sort of know that the world was going to be okay.
[00:31:33] Huw Thomas: Hmm.
[00:31:34] Jeffery Wang: I’m not quite sure if I feel that right now or today, and I can’t really Yeah, it’s yeah, strange, isn’t it?
[00:31:42] Jeffery Wang: and, and, and, well, nothing’s seriously wrong or, or, you know, it’s not like we’re about to break out into a, a world war, but I just don’t feel like we’ve got the same, sense of certainty going forward.
[00:31:52] Huw Thomas: Hey, and that might be, that might be true, and I, but I think it’s also sometimes our perceptions. I was watching this, this is a great Netflix documentary, I’m probably going to forget the name of it, but it’s to do with the Cold War and the atom bomb, basically, a nuclear, nuclear threat since the end of World War II. And it’s kind of a reminder that there’s always been these world tensions, and the Cold War is still going effectively. It’s been going since the end of World War II. And it’s still kind of simmering along and it’s maybe boiling up a little bit with, the Ukraine invasion. And, you know, there’s been a lot of terrible conflicts over the last century and many centuries before that and probably all throughout history and just in different scales. We get it beamed into our palm of our hand; you know. Throughout the day through live streams and the media, you know, that’s how they make money from telling us about these shocking stories. We seem sort of addicted to them in one sense, because there’s a lot of drama there. You could easily shut that out though.
[00:32:53] Huw Thomas: You could easily stop consuming that content and just live a very normal, happy life and not even feel any, any uncertainty and just go about your business, living in your community. So, I think the degree of certainty we perceive is related to the kind of content we’re consuming. If you follow politics, you’re going to, you’re certainly going to feel that. Because, yeah, that’s all that gets talked about. And there’s constant volatility and, and there’s constant pressure on governments to deliver. And it’s, it’s very slow moving. The complexity of the organizational, or the global system, sorry, is such that they can’t get things done quickly. And things are very, very expensive and costly.
[00:33:30] Huw Thomas: And You know, I don’t envy our politicians. I think it’s a super, super big challenge. but we have huge demanding voters out here. We’re all sort of wanting results and change, but it takes time.
[00:33:42] Jeffery Wang: Oh, indeed. Now, I think it’s good wisdom there. You know, the reality is that we choose to pay attention to certain things. I think one of those realizations I had recently is that, you know, politics in the media, you know, we used to think that it’s, you know, watching the news. It’s not news. It’s entertainment.
[00:33:59] Jeffery Wang: It’s there to, it’s there for eyeballs and clicks, same as everything else. You know, it’s all competing for the same, you know, Attention economy, yeah, it’s all competing for the same ad dollars. and so, once you understand that frame, it’s, it’s a lot easier to watch the news, with that context.
[00:34:16] Jeffery Wang: right. So, lesson number six,

[00:34:19] Lesson 6: Embrace Acceptance and Forgiveness

[00:34:19] Jeffery Wang: Embrace acceptance and forgiveness. This sounds a little bit more, Zen and philosophical.
[00:34:26] Huw Thomas: I think this is, is a bit of a, you know, a lot of these things, you’re probably seeing a theme here. A lot of it is about mindset and your beliefs about the world and yourself and, you know, you know, things don’t always go as we hope or accept, and other people often fall short of our expectations, too.
[00:34:44] Huw Thomas: There’s these things which are out of our control, and I think, you know, they can be frustrating, but I think if we get stuck in frustration or resentment and bitterness and anger or rivalry and any sort of drama like that, it’s a bit of a damaging cycle, and that distracts us from, you know, constructive action in our lives towards our goals. And an example for me personally, another sort of small personal story, and my parents split up when I was a teen and my dad went to work overseas and I didn’t see him, that much, only every few months really. and for a while I sort of resented my parents for this you know, I had a bit of a victim mentality as a result when I was a young man or at an older teen. And then one day I sort of just realized that it was really hurting I stepped away from that problem and I stopped viewing things in the same way and I sort of tried to view things from my parents perspective and acknowledge, you know, I couldn’t know what they went through and I decided to sort of forgive them for that and accept the situation.
[00:35:44] Huw Thomas: They’re great people and I’ve always had great relationships with them, but there’s a bit of this sort of simmering, me making excuses for things in life and having that sort of victim mentality. As a young fella, and when I sort of did that, I think my relationship with them just immediately improved and I matured and that sort of acceptance of them and forgiveness, I think it was really, really powerful. And I’ve, I’ve applied the same thing, I think, as much as possible. I’ve noticed that myself falling into that trap anyway with certain people and you get frustrated with others or different kinds of people who think differently in the workplace, and it really just hurts you. and there’s that old sort of adage, I can’t remember it exactly, it’s I think like being angry is like taking poison and expecting your rival to die.
[00:36:30] Huw Thomas: and I think it’s absolutely true, so. You can get frustrated, but the key is to sort of step away from that as quickly as possible, accept the thing that’s out of your control or the person you can’t control. And if someone does the wrong thing by you or you just forgive as quickly as possible and try and move on quickly.
[00:36:48] Huw Thomas: If you have an argument, try and get over it and talk about it and deal with it promptly and move on and don’t hang on to that sort of drama and negative emotions. and I think some people fall into that trap. It’s a common thing with us. So, I think we’ve all fallen into those negative emotions, but, you know, drama can be really toxic.
[00:37:06] Huw Thomas: And I even see it in organizations. There’s often bitter feuds, politics, and things like that going on. And I try and, I’ve helped to resolve quite a few of those in different organizations simply by talking to people and getting them to frame the situation and accept each other and, and then just move on.
[00:37:21] Jeffery Wang: indeed, you’re not going to get any arguments from me. I think that that’s one of those pieces of wisdoms that I think we could all do, with more of, I think, in our lives.
[00:37:32] Huw Thomas: Yeah, thanks, Jeff. I think one thing you probably like, in terms of a frame or context for the forgiveness one in particular is, so many conflicts around the world are due to dramas of the past. You know, even Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, stuck in the past and feels like the Soviet Union’s been humiliated and wants to bring it back.
[00:37:52] Huw Thomas: And there’s, the war in Gaza. There’s these bitter feuds between. These different, groups dating back hundreds and hundreds of years, and it’s just a deep-seated hatred. And they’re the extremes, right? That’s where it goes. and we’ve sort of got a, when I see those, those conflicts, they happen all around the world.
[00:38:12] Huw Thomas: And they’re generally all driven by these kinds of emotions and intergenerational, resentment. and I think that’s where that kind of stuff goes. And we have to be really mindful in our own society. When we see that, and we see it in Australia I think sometimes, so I think we have to really promote this sort of Western value we have of forgiveness, because I think it’s incredibly powerful and it’s led to a lot of prosperity and the diversity of our culture here in Australia, and we’ve got to hang on to it and promote it.
[00:38:42] Huw Thomas: A hundred percent. And, and I like that quote, right? what is it? The, unforgiveness is like drinking poison and helping the other person dies.
[00:38:49] Jeffery Wang: I think that that’s, that’s, definitely a lot of wisdom there.
[00:38:52] Huw Thomas: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:53] Lesson 7: Make Yourself Useful

[00:38:53] Jeffery Wang: Lesson number seven, make yourself useful.
[00:38:56] Huw Thomas: Yeah. So
[00:38:57] Jeffery Wang: what my mom says,
[00:38:58] Huw Thomas: yeah, that’s, well, that’s where it came from for me too, Jeff. I was just going to say both my mum and dad grew up on farms. My dad grew up on a dairy farm in New Zealand. Mum grew up on a farm in the Riverina region in New South Wales. Yeah. I think this is probably the motto of many farmers as well and people who grew up out there.
[00:39:15] Huw Thomas: and, you know, you hear it a lot as kids, probably a lot of Aussie kids hear that. usually around the same time they’re being, you know, handed a broom or a, you know, a tea towel to dry the dishes or something like that. but I think, you know, in, in complex The organizations I work in, they’re big, complex organizations, and I often find, you know, a lot of busy people will shirk accountability, and even for addressing some of the, biggest challenges and opportunities because they’re trying to avoid work or they’re trying to avoid that,
[00:39:46] Jeffery Wang: Responsibility.
[00:39:48] Huw Thomas: just responsibility, yeah,
[00:39:49] Huw Thomas: and they’ll talk a big game in meetings perhaps, but don’t want to follow through and take action or make certain sacrifices to, to really tackle the big goals.
[00:39:57] Huw Thomas: and I think these organizations, the world generally, like you were saying at the start, Jeff, around leadership, you know, is desperate for more people willing to take ownership for generating the outcomes we really need. Not just being on the sidelines, not just talking about it, not just hoping someone else is going to come along and save us and do it for us, but actually diving in and doing something about it and, you know, volunteering their time. And so, when I was a kid, you know, anytime there’s a job to be done, we’d better be helping get it done. And even on a weekend during school, if I was sitting around the couch for too long, you know, I’d get dragged outside. I’d be raking up leaves or, you know, mowing the lawn and doing stuff like that.
[00:40:35] Huw Thomas: And I was always just kind of, well, half my childhood, in fact, I think, is just doing chores. That’s what my main memory is, just doing chores around the house. But I quite like it, and I enjoy it and even today I’m always out and busy on weekends doing that kind of thing and I find it really satisfying and it’s actually really rewarding being busy and taking on those responsibilities.
[00:40:52] Huw Thomas: There’s a lot of value in it. and I try and bring that into organizations too. Like even when I get hired as a consultant, I’ve got a certain scope and just go and deliver this thing. I always try and go beyond that. Not to take, not to blow out my scope into something huge, which is going to take up tons of time, but I’ll often comment to my clients on lots of other things.
[00:41:07] Huw Thomas: I’m just kind of constantly trying to bring as much value as possible to the people I work with, and even people, even not clients, just people I’m, you know, catching up with. And I sort of bumped into someone today who I did a course with a few years ago, and I was just thinking about how can I help her and, stage in her careers, and who can I introduce her to?
[00:41:26] Huw Thomas: And I’m just always trying to add value to others. I think you just have to have that mentality. You know, so much will come your way, so many opportunities, so many, all the great leaders in the company you work with are going to want you on their team. And if you’re running a business, people are going to want to do business with you. If you’re running a little shop front on a corner, even, you know, customers are going to want to come into your shop because you’re going to be that person who’s just so mega helpful and wants to make their day. And so, I think taking ownership of just the problem, the opportunity, or helping others is probably one of the most essential core aspects of leadership.
[00:41:59] Jeffery Wang: What I really like about your anecdotes about your mom telling you to make yourself useful is that they don’t necessarily tell you what you need to do. Like it’s up to you to figure out what needs to be done. But that’s not being done. I must say, there’s not a whole lot of that happening to kids which are being raised today.
[00:42:19] Jeffery Wang: And I think that might be part of the problem. I mean, this is actually giving me quite a food for thought, you know, making yourself useful. That is such a wise thing to make your kids do. Because what you’re actually prompting them to do is to look for where the need is, and you know, where there’s a problem and go and solve it.
[00:42:38] Jeffery Wang: And, if you can be that person, you’ll never be out of a job. and, and I think that’s the core to value. That’s the core to success. A lot of the time, if you’re that person, you’re always going to be in demand.
[00:42:51] Huw Thomas: Mm.
[00:42:52] Jeffery Wang: And you’re always going to have the right, you know, skills to solve problems and help others.
[00:42:56] Jeffery Wang: And, and quite frankly, you’ll also be that person who’s fulfilled.
[00:43:01] Huw Thomas: Mm.
[00:43:02] Jeffery Wang: you know, you’ll probably never be depressed because you know exactly what you’re worth.
[00:43:06] Jeffery Wang: These are all essential life skills you’re going to need later on. If you can’t develop them during the reformative years, then you know, you, you’re certainly going to be behind. But I suppose the flip side of the coin is that if you can, you’ll be way ahead. so yeah, definitely a, a lot of food for thought for, especially raising children and, and how we, you know, so didn’t think we were going to get that much out of, make yourself useful.

[00:43:30] Lesson 8: Shape the Experience Others Have of You

[00:43:30] Jeffery Wang: But here we are. So, But, lesson number eight, I like this one because. I think that there’s a certain way that you said this that I, I really like you said, to shape the experience others have of you.
[00:43:42] Jeffery Wang: So how, how do you control how others, other people experience you?
[00:43:47] Huw Thomas: Yeah, I think this one’s about sort of sometimes stepping into other people’s shoes or disassociating yourself from your own sort of head and getting out of your own head and thoughts and
[00:43:56] Jeffery Wang: Hmm
[00:43:56] Huw Thomas: what you want and need. And we’re always in that often in that space and that’s fine. But just think about like, what’s your persona and how you show up to other people. And yeah, do you want to have control of that and sort of let that determine how you behave a little bit?
[00:44:12] Huw Thomas: because I think sometimes people just have these bad habits or annoying habits in the workplace and they’re not really thinking, oh, I wonder how other people perceive that. And I wonder if, this is helping others, is it inspiring and motivating them or is it sort of bringing them down and sucking life out of the room?
[00:44:28] Huw Thomas: And so, I think always thinking about that is really useful. When I was at university, I held up a part time job at a barbecue shop and their mission statement was really simple and I loved it.
[00:44:40] Huw Thomas: And their mission statement at that time was to ensure everyone who deals with us has a great experience. And I remember thinking, you know, that has nothing to do with the business. But I actually, it really sunk in and gradually I started to like it, and I found it quite useful. And they used to talk about it in everything, the sales training they gave us, and, you know, everyone who walks in the door, we want to really make this a great experience.
[00:45:03] Huw Thomas: And so, what does a great experience look like? Well, we show an interest in them, we smile within a minute of them walking in the shop, and you try and understand their needs, and what they like to do on weekends when they’re barbecuing, and how many people they’re cooking for, and, you know, trying to get to know the customer. And being fun to be around as well and making it a fun environment. All these different things were sort of embedded. They embedded the mission statement throughout the work and I ended up sort of, it’s for some reason it just stuck with me and I tried to apply something similar you know, in my, in my career just to make sure that anyone who deals with me walks away better off than when they came to me. and that doesn’t necessarily mean I just make them feel good. It might mean I pay attention to them and I’m thinking about what does this person need or what’s going to really benefit them given what they’re telling me or what their situation is. And maybe they need a bit of inspiration and motivation. Maybe they need to just be told what to do. Maybe they just need me to listen. Maybe they need some support and or some recognition and or they need to walk away feeling a bit more challenged. And so, I’m always trying to tune into that and thinking or what does the person need from me. Beyond just what they’re actually asking for or what they’re actually saying to me. So, I’m thinking about what’s, what are others experience of me? and so I think I am a little bit of a challenger and a motivator, and I try to inspire. So, I’m always trying to uplift people and let them know they can do something, and they should think bigger as we talked about and to maybe think differently.
[00:46:30] Huw Thomas: I’m always trying to challenge the status quo and go a little bit against the grain. And so, people kind of know when they deal with me, they’re like, they’re going to get their thoughts. So, their beliefs have been disrupted and I’m sort of known for that, and I’m happy with that. I want that. I don’t want to be known as someone who’s just going to agree with everything you say, because that’s, I think that’s probably not going to help you too much.
[00:46:49] Jeffery Wang: Indeed, and I think that’s the difference between a transactional relationship and someone that they feel like, you know, that they can really build a, you know, a partnership or valuable relationship with. So, yeah, I’m, yep, I’m 100 percent in agreement there.

[00:47:05] Lesson 9: Framing Is a Powerful Lever of Influence

[00:47:05] Jeffery Wang: lesson number nine, framing is a powerful lever of influence. Now, what do you mean by framing?
[00:47:12] Huw Thomas: Yeah, I’m not talking about picture framing. it is sort of like our beliefs about a situation.
[00:47:18] Huw Thomas: so, the premise here is your, your default, Thoughts and feelings about people or situations aren’t facts or reality. And often we mistake them for facts and reality. It’s just really our opinion about what’s going on, or our belief about a situation, or how we’re framing it. and we have the power to sort of pause and rethink and reframe how we see a situation, how we see anything, to enable a more constructive or positive emotion and the right kind of action to follow. You know, the classic example of, framing is really the glass half empty, half full. You can have two people. Looking at the same thing in a different way, one sort of optimistic and positive and grateful and the other one sort of pessimistic and entitled or, you know, concerned, and that’s the ultimate sort of, I guess, cliched framing situation. I just, I learned the power of this when I studied Neuro Linguistic Programming.
[00:48:14] Huw Thomas: and framing is something which you can use for yourself. So, you can frame a situation like you might experience a situation. You feel maybe it’s not a great situation or it’s tough or it’s uncertain. And you feel a bit of tension and, fear or anything like that or this negative emotion. You, you sort of pause, take a breath and go, okay, why am I feeling that way?
[00:48:33] Huw Thomas: Okay, I’m, I’m thinking this way because I think uncertainty is going to be a catastrophic problem for me. And then maybe think about it in another way and think, okay, well, this, this uncertainty might, maybe this is a chance for me to change the way I do things. Maybe there’s an opportunity in this for me to, you know, have a positive impact on others, or there’s an opportunity for me to, you know, do something different and grow and learn as a result of this as an experience, which is out of the box. And so, framing can change the way that you or change your willingness to dive into them. And, because if we sort of see things in the wrong way, it’ll influence our emotions, and our emotions will hold us back. So, fear is that big one we talked about earlier and you can sort of eliminate fear by framing a lot of situations in a different kind of way. so, I think, I think that’s sort of where the power lies in it.
[00:49:27] Jeffery Wang: I think what you’re, the lesson that you’ve shared here is that it’s as much your own Mindset is, as it is, you know, a tool to help others to sort of see things in, in, in, in another light. So, a hundred percent, definitely a very powerful tool.

[00:49:42] Lesson 10: Life Is a Team Game

[00:49:42] Huw Thomas: All right. Lesson number 10. That sounds like we’re going to end on a very positive note. Life is a team game.
[00:49:51] Huw Thomas: Yeah, sure is. this is a lesson I’m constantly teaching myself. I can be a lone wolf at times. I’ve been called that sometimes, and I’m running a solo consulting practice at the moment, so in some sense I have a team game, although I’m hiring an assistant next week. I’m starting, and I love working with clients and teaming up with clients and with people.
[00:50:09] Huw Thomas: But I guess while I believe we should be sort of free to pursue our own unique aspirations and our own needs, we’ll be best served, I think, by considering how we add value to others. And when we do that, people can really help us as well. And I think there’s, there’s so much greatness comes from, you know, communities, family, from teams in organizations, and blending different skills together to build incredible things. And I know sort of as a consultant that the better I understand my clients and their challenges and aspirations, the better I’ll be able to serve them and the more successful I’ll be. And so, when I’m 100 percent focused on them and really helping them, inevitably it’s going to flow through and help me.
[00:50:50] Huw Thomas: I don’t need to go into them, those, I’ve got a lot of those engagements thinking about myself because that sort of comes second, and it comes back in a, you know, a big return. And I think same in family, you know, the better I am at understanding my wife, my kids and what drives them and what they want, the better husband and father I’m going to be.
[00:51:09] Huw Thomas: And so just being really tuned into them, helps me be a great father. And then, you know, I get lots of love and recognition coming back to me on that. And if I’m Upbeat and positive and fun to be around and people will want me, you know, going to want me to be around in social events and I’ll get invited to things and people want me to work on different work projects because that does matter in the workplace as well, you know, that you are a good person and fun to be around and I think this kind of philosophy can really be applied to just about any kind of relationship.
[00:51:41] Jeffery Wang: Indeed, and the most fulfilling relationships are the ones that you do provide value to others. it’s interesting because all the lessons that you’ve, you’ve mentioned in life, you know, it’s, I’m not surprised, but I tend to, in fact, I agree with all of them. these are the kinds of values that I’ve, I’ve grown to learn as well, through my own, experiences.
[00:51:59] Jeffery Wang: I believe that if we seek to serve others, it will ultimately come back to us. And the fact is that by how much we care and give value to others will be the quality of our own lives, who would actually be reflected in the quality of the relationships that we have, which will ultimately be the quality of our lives.
[00:52:17] Jeffery Wang: great wisdom. Thank you for sharing that. Now I loved, well, at 10 lessons, we always throw one of these curve balls at the end of a lesson.
[00:52:25] Jeffery Wang: And if you, if you’ve ever heard any of the episodes, you know exactly what’s coming, but what is the one lesson that you’ve unlearned? So, so something that you’ve known to be ironclad truth in your 20s or when you’re starting out in life that you later learned that it just was complete bollocks.
[00:52:42] Huw Thomas: Ah, good question. I used to be super competitive, and I think there’s a big danger in it. I think it’s good to be competitive to some extent, but it can be a problem, and it can, I guess some of those last, that last lesson and some of the other ones I’ve shared tonight, these days I just realized that it’s often about other people it’s not about me winning.
[00:53:04] Huw Thomas: And when I really focus on others and helping others, it’s almost like I’ve gone from, Maybe the unlearning thing is I’ve unlearned to be a player and more to be the coach. Like, in a sporting sense that is, in terms of that analogy, where I’m not trying to be the star player anymore, I’m trying to help others.
[00:53:24] Huw Thomas: And I think that’s helped me be a better consultant, better coach, better husband, dad, all those different things. I guess as you mature, I started to see my role as more of a, A contributor to society rather than someone who’s trying to get ahead themselves. And you know, in the early days I was super competitive, super ambitious and always just trying to climb the corporate ladder and you know, and get promoted and you know, it was all a bit me, me, me. And I think I’ve unlearned that pretty, pretty well and that’s given me a lot of great success, I think.
[00:53:56] Jeffery Wang: And you think you’re a better version of yourself now than you were when you believed in that?
[00:54:01] Huw Thomas: Yeah, I show up better. I show up in a way which is better to be around, you know, I’m not trying to not just trying to win. And, trying to win in some ways. Like I’m running a business at the moment where, you know, I like to see the numbers going up and see that, clients giving me positive feedback and, and recognition that’s, you know, it gives me a sense that I’m doing the right thing. that I’m adding value. And I suppose that’s probably the different frame that I’m using is it’s about creating value for people rather than competing winning myself. so that’s probably the big switch.
[00:54:36] Jeffery Wang: Love it. Thanks for sharing that.
[00:54:38] Huw Thomas: great question.
[00:54:40] Jeffery Wang: Thanks. Well, that was a very enjoyable conversation. Thank you so much for sharing that. We will finish on that note.
[00:54:47] Huw Thomas: awesome, love that. Thanks for having me on the show.
[00:54:49] Jeffery Wang: well, thank you. You’ve been listening to 10 Lessons Learned, the podcast that make the world a little wiser, lesson by lesson. Today, we’re joined by our special guest, Huw Thomas. Thanks to our 10 Lessons team that makes our show possible, our episode editor, Cody Comeau. Marketing social media manager, Yi Wang, our producer, Robert Hossary. supported as always by the Professional Development Forum. Don’t forget to leave us a review or comment. You can even email us at podcast at 10lessonslearned. com. Go ahead hit that subscribe button, so you don’t miss an episode of the only podcast that makes the world a little wiser, lesson by lesson.
[00:55:26] Jeffery Wang: Thanks for tuning in and stay safe, everyone.

Thanks to our 10 Lessons team that make our show possible: Our Episode Editor Codie Comeau, Marketing and social media managed by Yi Wang, and our Producer Robert Hossary. Sponsored as always by Professional Development Forum. You can find the www.professionaldevelopmentforum.org.

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