Garry McLinn- Librettos to Leads: Composing Success in Sales

[00:00:08] Garry McLinn: Hello, and welcome to 10 Lessons Learned, where we talk to leaders and luminaries from all over the world to dispense wisdom for career, business, and life. In order to make the world wiser lesson by lesson, my name is Diana White, and I am your host for this episode.
[00:00:26] Diana White: Our guest today is Gary McLinn. Welcome Gary.
[00:00:30] Garry McLinn: Nice to be here. Thanks, Diana.
[00:00:33] Diana White: Gary, tell us a little bit about yourself.
[00:00:36] Garry McLinn: Sure thing. So, I am a sales director for an organization called Education First, that specializes in experiential education through travel. I’ve been with the organization for. Going on six years now.
[00:00:48] Garry McLinn: my path into leadership is kind of a non-traditional one. it probably would serve the quick story to back up to the beginning. before this, I was an opera singer trained to have a master’s degree in music, I did that for a long time. and cultivated a real passion for team-based collaboration because that’s what putting a show on is.
[00:01:05] Garry McLinn: It is a team that has a goal that wants to make something impactful happen. when I was looking to make a pivot into something a little more stationary, because I was traveling a lot and wanted something more home based.
[00:01:16] Garry McLinn: I moved into sales. My trajectory through the organization was pretty traditional at first, jumped in in February of 19, had a great sales year and then as we all know the following February, we had to shut everything down, for COVID, all told. In that time, I made a decision to aim my trajectory at leadership because I was really enjoying working with people.
[00:01:37] Garry McLinn: I was enjoying being that space for folks to come and talk to during those rough months. I felt like I had something there. So, I cultivated some mentors, and started developing that. We came out of COVID. I was ready to rock and roll and step into a leadership role when the next thing opened up.
[00:01:51] Garry McLinn: And then I got sick. I got diagnosed with high grade B cell non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma, and had to undergo chemotherapy, to solve that problem. that really shaped a lot of my worldview. it took me from a place of relative comfort to a place of adversity, and taught me a lot of lessons, which we’ll talk about.
[00:02:09] Garry McLinn: At the end of the day, once I was done, about six months later, and about a year in remission, by the way, so rock on, I was ready to move into that leadership role. A spot opened up in a different product from the one that I was working in at the moment. I moved from our international division to our domestic division and started working with the newest hires coming into our organization.
[00:02:27] Garry McLinn: It was a position of a lot of care for people’s early careers. I loved it. I had a great time with it. I was able to onboard, 28 new hires. I was able to bring in a co-manager and build a shared leadership style. we had so many successes together, that at the end of the year, just a few weeks ago, I was asked to move into a directorship position, which I now occupy.
[00:02:46] Garry McLinn: So that’s the minute and a half version of the life story there.
[00:02:50] Diana White: I have so many questions. first of all, congratulations on over a year going strong. I really would love to know how that segue happened from singing to where we are now, but that’s a whole other episode viewers and listeners.
[00:03:07] Diana White: What would you tell your 30-year-old self?
[00:03:10] Garry McLinn: It’s so interesting because my 30-year-old self was right at that pivot point. I was evaluating whether the freelancing was working, and trying to decide if I was ready to make the transition out of a full-time pursuit of art and into a full-time pursuit of something that I didn’t at the time.
[00:03:28] Garry McLinn: Understand was also artistic what I would tell my 30-year-old self at that point is be brave, make the leap and do something different and you’ll find the joy.
[00:03:38] Garry McLinn: Because that’s been true. there is an expression of humanity in any sort of leadership-based work, I think, that is kind of the same backbone that I was finding in the artistic world.
[00:03:50] Garry McLinn: I didn’t know that at the time, but if I had, I would have been a lot less scared, to make the leap that I made.
[00:03:56] Diana White: it’s so funny that you talk about, that fearlessness or lack thereof, because older generations look at younger generations and say, they’re fearless, right? but it is totally the opposite, I think, in a lot of circumstances.
[00:04:11] Diana White: So, I wish a lot of 30-year-olds could hear that message from their future selves. Makes a lot of sense.

[00:04:17] Lesson 1: Listen first

[00:04:17] Diana White: Let’s go right into lesson number one, we talked a little bit about our leadership studies and styles I come from servant leadership. when I read the lesson, I said, oh, we’ve heard this a billion times.
[00:04:29] Diana White: And I said, and I never get tired of it. I really never get tired of it. Lesson number one, listen first. Talk to me about that.
[00:04:37] Garry McLinn: in my career in the sales world, there have been moments where I have been tasked with leading peers. Leading people who are more advanced than I am, in their sales careers.
[00:04:48] Garry McLinn: and that initially was a struggle for me, because I didn’t quite know how to thread the needle on here’s what I have to offer. Here’s what you have to offer. How do we meet in the middle, I got some advice from a mentor, Shut up for a minute. Just listen, get in the room get them talking and listen.
[00:05:05] Garry McLinn: it’s been very instructive because there is always a moment at the beginning of working with a direct report, a colleague where we just don’t really know each other I need to understand who they are, in various contexts so I can give them the most of myself. I need that time to let them.
[00:05:22] Garry McLinn: I’m excited about it, but the first thing I needed to do with this team was to understand what their work is like, and who they are as an individual before I could start offering, you If I were to listen to anything if I just came in strong, I think I would lose their buy in immediately.
[00:05:50] Garry McLinn: I need to be tailoring what I’m doing directly to their need. so that’s kind of, you know, the short version of Listen First, but I think there’s 10 lessons around listening just in general. but I’ll stop there for the sake of time.
[00:06:03] Diana White: So, the next one, Bringing the same kind of ideologies to the table when we lead and when we talk with our co-workers, I, I am a collaborative.
[00:06:16] Diana White: And right. So, everyone, everyone is my coworker. Even the people that report to me We’re all coworkers together and I feel the same philosophy from you. that is refreshing.

[00:06:26] Lesson 2: Lead with Vulnerability

[00:06:26] Diana White: Lesson number two, lead with vulnerability, make space for your coworkers, direct reports and mentees to feel safe being vulnerable around you.
[00:06:37] Diana White: Tell me about that.
[00:06:39] Garry McLinn: All right. Well, I can’t talk about vulnerability and not mention Brené Brown. a lot of her work is very instructive in my professional worldview. she talks about vulnerability a lot, so I’ll save, quoting her for her podcast.
[00:06:51] Garry McLinn: Go out there and find them. They’re amazing. For me, it ties right back into that first lesson. I need anybody I’m working with to understand that it’s safe to be vulnerable with me. Now, there’s a lot of qualitative reasons why, a lot of emotional reasons why, but frankly, there is an efficiency reason why that we don’t talk about very often. the sooner you’re comfortable being vulnerable with me as your manager, leader, or co-worker, the sooner we’re able to collaborate in a way that puts something out that is better. If we’re spending time, feeling each other out, what’s safe, what’s not, what can I say in front of this person?
[00:07:28] Garry McLinn: Can I be my full self in front of this person? Then I’m not getting the most out of that relationship with that individual, which can be really hard. I also, and I mentioned before, I was very much the steward of early career folks for a while. one of my core philosophies is fail fast and feel safe trying, swinging big and missing.
[00:07:47] Garry McLinn: and knowing that that learning opportunity is part of what I want for your professional growth. so, I need people to feel comfortable, in that vulnerability, saying, hey, this didn’t work. I tried this and I failed. I am not understanding this. I am not feeling safe psychologically in this environment.
[00:08:05] Garry McLinn: I want people to be able to come to me with that so that I can validate that, experience and then find a way to correct for that so we can, get to that place where it’s greater than the sum of its parts.
[00:08:15] Diana White: And in sales, you don’t hear that all the time, right? You have a script, you have a quota, and that’s it.
[00:08:23] Diana White: Do what you need to do in many cases. And so, to hear a leader say, fail fast, but you’re going to fail with support so that you can get out on the other side of better person. That’s right. you might have some people after you, sir. They got quotas to make.
[00:08:40] Garry McLinn: I’m ready for it. No, I think we can draw a direct line to productivity.
[00:08:44] Garry McLinn: I don’t have the studies at hand. I’m sure they’re out there. but we are a somewhat non-traditional sales organization and I’m grateful for that every day. my leadership empowers me to lead the way that I want to. and I think I get more out of people quota wise, even if we’re just dialing it down to numbers.
[00:09:01] Garry McLinn: When they feel comfortable taking risks, the clients are always out there. We have a big market and, if I have somebody that, tries something and it doesn’t work, I’d rather them figure out why it didn’t, and try something new with the next client outreach, than spend time feeling like they’re going to lose their job, get more and more careful, and not take big risks, and not bring in the big accounts, right?
[00:09:22] Garry McLinn: I think we get the larger accounts by being really real.
[00:09:25] Diana White: And we have a new member of the team for 10 Lessons, and he’s bringing a much more youthful perspective. one of the things he talks about constantly is we have a great plethora of gurus on the show that give us these wise lessons that it took them 20, 30, sometimes 40 years to learn.
[00:09:48] Diana White: he’s wanting to know what is the first step in learning. For instance, leading with vulnerability, making people feel safe around you. What is the first thing you can do to set the tone for that? Do you have an answer for that one?
[00:10:03] Garry McLinn: Yeah, that’s a great question. I’ll point directly at Kim Scott’s book, Radical Candor.
[00:10:08] Garry McLinn: Kim recommends that, you start by soliciting feedback, every day, the minute I walk into a room with a direct report. you don’t know me yet. What do you need from a leader? A couple of weeks later, are you getting what you need from me? can I be doing anything better for you? that is the North star, for a lot of the early steps into that relationship is getting that feedback loop going, making it safe for them to give you feedback so that it’s easy for you to then give them feedback as well. I’m spoiling one of the later lessons we’ll get there, but I do think it is the first step, to be soliciting feedback early and often from the people you are working for and with.

[00:10:43] Lesson 3: Give feedback generously, candidly, often, and with care at the core.

[00:10:43] Diana White: I would say that segues greatly into lesson number three. Get feedback generously, candidly, often, and with care at the core. I wish I could bumper sticker that, and with care at the core, because that is the most important part. Talk to us about this lesson.
[00:10:59] Garry McLinn: Yes, so again with Kim Scott, Radical Candor, she describes Radical candor as the intersection on the XY axis of caring personally and challenging directly, right?
[00:11:11] Garry McLinn: and that care personally piece is really important. I have a story of me doing it wrong. this is what taught me this lesson in a big way. I had a mentee, who was a seasoned sales professional. he was in his sixties. he had come to us looking for something sales adjacent, mission driven, he wanted to enjoy himself with us, which I thought was really cool and special.
[00:11:31] Garry McLinn: I was tasked with mentoring this individual and, he had a couple of different sellers working in his region. the picture of his success was made up of those different streams, not just his, so he, had a really shiny looking territory because there was a lot of really great effort happening in that space.
[00:11:47] Garry McLinn: My task was to challenge him and say, what are you bringing to the table? where is your contribution here. I came in saying, look, this is where this is coming from. Where are you? I didn’t take the time to establish the relationship.
[00:11:57] Garry McLinn: I didn’t take the time to make sure this person understood that my number one goal was that he feel stewarded in his career with us towards the best version of his success. And I got feedback later from my mentor that he had actually considered leaving the organization that day.
[00:12:17] Diana White: Wow.
[00:12:18] Garry McLinn: at my mentor’s suggestion, walked back into the room and said, hey, this is what I meant to do.
[00:12:24] Garry McLinn: This is what I did. Thank you for giving me that space. can we try again here? And we wound up having a great relationship after that, which was lovely. the point of the story is. It’s fine to challenge. It’s fine to give feedback. We need to, right? We need to do it often. We need to do it generously.
[00:12:39] Garry McLinn: We need to do it in the moment. But if we don’t have that spine of care behind it, it’s so easy for it to feel like an attack or something that doesn’t have the individual centered at the core of that feedback, right? And if we don’t have that, then it gets lost.
[00:12:53] Garry McLinn: folks feel unsafe in their psychological work environments and it’s just not a productive situation.
[00:12:58] Diana White: And, and I, and it ties back to something you said in a previous lesson, which is, you know, there’s something to be said for understanding how they perceive and how they receive the feedback.
[00:13:12] Diana White: And in no way, are we saying that You have to mold yourself to be everything that each individual employee needs. You still need to come from a place of authenticity, but finding out how something needs to be said to resonate with them because the end goal is for them to get on board.
[00:13:30] Diana White: Right, exactly. The end goal is for them to get on board. And if you can do that in a way that they understand, think about all my, Business days where jargon was thrown at you. you were told you got to do X, Y, and Z. You had no idea what that meant. No idea how to take the first steps, but you had to do it.
[00:13:49] Garry McLinn: It’s exactly that, you know, and not having, a caring guide in those early days. in a lot of ways, our sales culture in 2024, even outside of the organization I work for is so different than it was in, 2015, 2005. it’s a very different environment in many ways, in many good ways and, ways that I want to keep. This is one of them.

[00:14:08] Lesson 4: Embrace Adversity as the Gauntlet of Growth

[00:14:08] Diana White: Lesson number four. Embrace adversity as a gauntlet of growth. When tackling a challenge, visualize success. Respect the possibility of failure and find the easiest threat to grab and keep pushing.
[00:14:23] Garry McLinn: This is a whole podcast. So, I’ll give you the quick version. this is the story of my time undergoing chemotherapy.
[00:14:32] Garry McLinn: When I was diagnosed, I had the moment of bottoming out, that moment of real fear, one of the things that lives in me that I feel so fortunate is that there comes a point, in my processing of anything where we just see the path ahead, there’s one choice and it’s to walk it.
[00:14:49] Garry McLinn: And let’s go, you know, so we got to do. so, and I think that comes from my parents and variety of other factors. so, credit where credit’s due. in this case, using the time under treatment as the metaphor for getting into the more professional pursuit. I was tackling a challenge.
[00:15:03] Garry McLinn: I had, six rounds of treatment I needed to get through. to get this lymphoma to go away. and I needed to be ready for that. visualizing success getting to the other side of that valley, and having this in the rear view, feeling healthy and strong.
[00:15:15] Garry McLinn: Respecting the possibility of failure in this environment specifically is pretty scary. failure is death, essentially,
[00:15:23] Garry McLinn: in this environment, and it was the first time in my life, I’ve encountered that head on. I’ve seen that possibility. And I realised pretty quickly that if I, didn’t look at it. If I kept it in my mind’s eye in the periphery over here, it would get bigger and bigger, and it would take over and I would lose my positivity. I would lose my strength. I would lose my optimism. So, I needed to understand that. Like, okay, this is what’s possible. This is what’s probable.
[00:15:48] Garry McLinn: Because my doctors were telling me all the probabilities. They were great with the stats. They’re amazing. I worked with Dana-Farber. They shout out. and, keeping that centered, the positivity while respecting the possibility of failure was very helpful. So, once I had that mindset, visualize positivity, understand what failure looks like, so we can make sure that we’re, not steering towards that.
[00:16:08] Garry McLinn: I was then able to start grabbing at threads, right? For me, the first thread was, Nutrition, Can I control what I’m eating? Can I control what’s going into my body? The second thread was, showing up to work to the extent that my body would allow me to. I was very fortunate.
[00:16:21] Garry McLinn: it never got so bad for me people who’ve been through chemo will tell you that it’s cumulative. in the duration of time, I was in I was always able to go back to work the next day. Focus on what I wanted to do and make an impact on my sales environment.
[00:16:33] Garry McLinn: which was amazing and, kept me going, kept me feeling positive. So that was one of the threads I pulled on. And then the key pushing piece is the grit piece, right? it’s the get up every day and do it. Do the thing, right? I want to be careful about how I talk about this because for people undergoing chemotherapy, people dealing with cancer, it’s such a spectrum that’s not possible for everybody.
[00:16:52] Diana White: So true.
[00:16:53] Garry McLinn: I was fortunate in that it was, and, by the time I got to the other side of it, I had more of myself than I had before. that has been how I approach every challenge since. visualizing that positivity, what does negative look like?
[00:17:05] Garry McLinn: What does failure look like? if we don’t hit our goals, what does that mean? does it mean that I’m not right for the job? Does it mean that we just had a miss, what does that mean? how do I steer away from that? How do I make sure that I’m leveraging all my resources towards success.
[00:17:19] Garry McLinn: once I know what those resources are, I’m grabbing them and I’m present with them every single day, keeping them front of mind and focused on what the next step is. Start with the lowest hanging fruit and build beyond that. that’s what that lesson means to me.
[00:17:29] Diana White: Can I ask, do you think that some of your Success now and some of the ways that you approach adversity now is because you went through one of the ultimate adversities?
[00:17:43] Garry McLinn: Absolutely. I’m going to talk about identity for a second. I am a middle-class white guy. Adversity in my life was something that wasn’t really present. this was the first time that I was challenged, in a way that, was healthy, but in a way, it really was something that I needed.
[00:18:04] Garry McLinn: I needed perspective, in a way that I didn’t have before. encountering. That level of adversity for me, it was very unique in my life. it taught me so much and made me feel connected to other people who experience adversity in their own ways, whether that’s medical, identity based, gender based, it’s not the same.
[00:18:23] Garry McLinn: It’s not one to one, but it gave me a language that helped me understand, more of how to be inclusive, which we’ll talk about more, later.
[00:18:31] Diana White: It makes so much sense.

[00:18:33] Lesson 5: Keep inclusivity at the heart of everything you do.

[00:18:33] Diana White: And once again, you’re right on.
[00:18:35] Diana White: Segway. Lesson number five, keep inclusivity at the heart of everything you do.
[00:18:41] Diana White: You never know who’s going to be the person you need. To make an impact down the line.
[00:18:46] Garry McLinn: Yeah. I’m going to brag on my co manager for a second here.
[00:18:52] Garry McLinn: my former co-manager, I keep forgetting that I’ve left that role. she’s somebody who, we were colleagues early on in my career.
[00:18:59] Garry McLinn: And didn’t know each other super well from very different worlds. but always had just a lovely interaction. just a bright face in the office. Somebody who I really enjoyed chatting with. she moved to our Austin, Texas office. and I noticed her absence. We weren’t tight. We didn’t hang out,
[00:19:14] Garry McLinn: I just like, this is just somebody who I noticed was gone. and it was kind of a bummer. we had the opportunity to hire, my co manager. I was. I was tasked with Being part of that hiring team, which was really unique and interesting. and we were able to hire her, into that role. and had we not, the picture of the success over the last year would be very different.
[00:19:34] Garry McLinn: she added so much. She brought so much to the table. She’s a very different, thought partner than I am. She’s very by the book. focused. driven and forward. I’m more like emotion forward, empathy forward, inclusive, you know, authenticity, that sort of stuff. She’s very by the book.
[00:19:47] Garry McLinn: I was watching an interview with Serena Williams this morning. Serena kept talking about when she was younger and what her approach to athletics were. It was like, oh, that’s the same as this person that I work with. it was that kind of mentality.
[00:20:01] Garry McLinn: We would never have collaborated. But the fact that I have an inclusive approach to my day to day, allowed me to have a genuine connection with her. And when she walked in the door into that position, we didn’t have to waste any time getting comfortable with each other. We were ready to rock and roll, right?
[00:20:20] Garry McLinn: and I got the privilege of being her big brother in that space, and bring her, because I had the benefit of some leadership training, a program we have, at EF, that she had not, So I was able to share that knowledge with her and help her feel comfortable stepping into a role where she felt a little in over her head initially, even though she totally wasn’t.
[00:20:36] Garry McLinn: it was really great to be that validating voice for her. you just don’t know who it’s going to be, if I hadn’t, had that approach with everybody that I work with. I’d have missed that opportunity to work with this person, to grow from that work, not just in terms of our success on the team, but also personally, and to forge a friendship that will really last forever, because of the work we’ve done together.
[00:20:55] Garry McLinn: So that’s my way of answering why inclusivity is so important. I want to add though, that’s a story. I want to add something more general here. Everyone shows up in different packages. blind spots are easy to form. inclusivity as a rule, as one of the five things you say to yourself when you get up in the morning,
[00:21:16] Garry McLinn: is to me non-negotiable, If my job is to get the most out of people and I am not making space for those people to be their full selves and not recognizing that they may learn differently than me, they may speak differently than me, they may celebrate success differently than me, they may feel failure differently than me,
[00:21:35] Garry McLinn: If I’m not making that space, then I’m not honoring the individual and I’m not helping those people raise their profile, not just in an organization, but for themselves. then I fail at my job.
[00:21:49] Diana White: This is a rule book for some good leadership because this ties into lesson one.
[00:21:54] Diana White: Listen first.

[00:21:56] Lesson 6: Just be real, don’t try to know everything.

[00:21:56] Diana White: I absolutely love this. Lesson number six, just be real. Don’t try to know everything. It is okay to say, I don’t know. What do you suggest?
[00:22:09] Garry McLinn: I’ve encountered this a lot. I learned pretty quickly that, being five years, six years into a sales career and being in leadership, there are people who know a lot more about this than I do.
[00:22:20] Garry McLinn: I have an employee now who is just a sales animal, you know, just that kind of person that is, so knowledgeable, knows his territory, like the freckles on the back of his hand, there are questions he’s going to have that I’m not going to have the answer to. That I’m going to have to leverage my mentor network, to find an answer to collaborate with people who know more than me, but that’s the best because that is when I grow. That’s when I learn more. And I think we spend so much time feeling like we’re supposed to know everything. We’re supposed to be perfect. to project this image of confidence. I am confident that I’m right for my job because. I am not confident that I know everything. I need to make that space for people, so they can feel the same way. I think the lesson here is to embrace not knowing, embrace collaboration, embrace learning and growth.
[00:23:12] Garry McLinn: the more we grow together the more successful we are down the line. I was on a team of sellers that handled a specific state, for international product. we are all so different and we all knew different things and we’re good at different things.
[00:23:26] Garry McLinn: And this team is the stuff of legends now, but this team’s impact on this state. was so large, and so effective because nobody tried to know everything. We just were there together.
[00:23:37] Garry McLinn: We’re a team and we all leverage each other and grew together. And by the time we were done, we were all ready for leadership specific focus selling and all sorts of like next level stuff, which is unfortunate for the state because we all had to go other places, but they have some great people behind us, which is lovely to see too.
[00:23:51] Garry McLinn: that’s awesome.

[00:23:53] Lesson 7: Strive for authenticity in all of your relationships, in and outside of work.

[00:23:53] Diana White: Lesson number seven, strive for authenticity in all of your relationships. In and outside of work.
[00:24:03] Garry McLinn: Authenticity is everything. it’s hard sometimes in sales leadership, to have conversations about not hitting goals, payout, not being the way, we want it to be, that sort of stuff.
[00:24:18] Garry McLinn: Those conversations are hard no matter what you do. I’ve seen it both ways. You walk into a room and tell somebody that it’s okay, this is the way it’s supposed to be, yadda, yadda, yadda, all those things that we tell people when we don’t hit a goal, you lose people, they check out, right, like, cool, where’s my paycheck though, I can’t pay rent, you walk into a room and say, look, it sucks, we didn’t get there this time, my job is to make sure that we are Analyzing everything and taking stock of everything.
[00:24:49] Garry McLinn: And I’m going to help us get there next time. Right. Which one is received better? Absolutely. It’s okay to admit how you feel about things. I think that we’re so careful about the way we’re perceived. and I think at certain levels you have to be, certainly our CEO’s version of authenticity is going to be different than mine.
[00:25:07] Garry McLinn: If we can keep authenticity at the heart of the conversation, if we can keep our full self in the conversation, then there’s more for people to understand.
[00:25:17] Garry McLinn: Authenticity and vulnerability, and I’m going to quote Renee, she says that vulnerability, they go hand in hand, these two things.
[00:25:24] Garry McLinn: That’s why I’m going back to vulnerability for a second. It’s the first thing we look for in other people and the last thing we’re willing to show.
[00:25:30] Garry McLinn: If we can get past that hump and just be authentic, be vulnerable, be in the room, we give people permission to be psychologically safe.
[00:25:38] Garry McLinn: We give people permission to be vulnerable. We give people permission to be authentic. Right? And then they’re the full selves. They bring more to the table. We hit goals. Simple as that.
[00:25:46]
[00:25:47] Diana White: when I teach networking and, how to really build relationships from a no like trust standpoint, I will tell everyone, I can guarantee you that you’re sending representatives, not your true self.
[00:26:02] Diana White: And it just depends on when that representative gets tired because it’s exhausting. Just go in as you, and then you don’t have to worry about remembering who you tried to be.
[00:26:13] Garry McLinn: It sounds so simple, Diana, but it’s so hard, especially when you’re young. if I think back to the person I was at 23 versus now, there was no such thing as authenticity in that dojo.
[00:26:23] Garry McLinn: I was just trying to be all these different kinds of people to fit all these different kinds of roles, which was my job back then. I was a performer, but still, it’s hard. And we have, I think, as leaders, it’s on us to make space for that, particularly with employees that are entering the workforce, fresh out of college, or making a career pivot, things like that.
[00:26:39] Garry McLinn: People that are coming into a new space. it’s on us to model that authenticity so they can find their own version of it.
[00:26:46] Diana White: Agreed. now we’re getting to the network piece, which I love this because this is actually what I purport in my life. And this is kind of what the show is all about, really.

[00:26:57] Lesson 8: Don’t build a network, cultivate mentors and teammates.

[00:26:57] Diana White: Lesson number eight, don’t build a network, cultivate mentors and teammates.
[00:27:04] Garry McLinn: Absolutely. I think I said to you before, I don’t remember if we were recording or not, but I’ll say it again. I think networking is a dirty word. LinkedIn is going to come after me for this, but.
[00:27:13] Diana White: And every chamber in the country.
[00:27:17] Garry McLinn: No, it’s not the act of building a network, It’s the feeling of being disingenuous that I object to. a lot of people struggle with that. I don’t want to walk into a coffee shop and have the 14th conversation about who I am and where I come from and blah, blah, blah.
[00:27:30] Garry McLinn: it feels so false for a lot of people. I have been successful by cultivating mentors. People who I respect and people who I want to help to, to a lot of mine for help growing myself, right? This has happened in the macro level on the micro level. there are people who still feel justifiably that they own a corner of my success and therefore will always be in the ring for me, which is amazing. And I’m so lucky that I’ve been able to do that, but I think everybody can, right? it’s a matter of who you respect? Who’s doing something that you think is interesting? Who has the connections that you want to have, and how can you turn them into not just somebody who knows you, but somebody who’s rooting for you,
[00:28:12] Garry McLinn: And that’s the difference. when it comes to the more lateral level, don’t stop your network at just people who have that higher level than you. You want to build teammates, we will help each other get to wherever you want to be at any point in our careers,
[00:28:27] Garry McLinn: That’s part of my team outside of my sales team, right? it’s my overall professional team. Build those teammates. Who are those people? People not at my organization who know the work that I do. People who, maybe people who listen to this podcast will become teammates of mine. Maybe they’ll become teammates of yours, right?
[00:28:42] Garry McLinn: Can you build that team out beyond what somebody might consider a traditional network? for me, it’s not that the act of networking is bad. the spirit in which I try to approach it is, can you build those mentors that are going to root for you. They’re going to be in the ring for you. Can you build those teammates that you’re going to show up for that are going to show up for you? That’s going to drive you further faster than just having your 85th coffee chat with somebody who doesn’t know you at all.
[00:29:08] Diana White: networking is synonymous with sales leads, how long, how hard can I network? So that I can get these sales leads and I’m going to sell my brand at every opportunity. But when you build that village around you of colleagues and mentors, you’d be surprised how much they can give you in terms of wisdom to make you work smarter, not harder.
[00:29:32] Diana White: And then those sales lead would come. Right? So, I think I’d love that turn on this philosophy. I don’t think it’s a turn. I think it’s something that Sales should adopt from the beginning.
[00:29:44] Garry McLinn: I agree. And it harkens back to some of these we’re talking about before the vulnerability, the authenticity, right?
[00:29:49] Garry McLinn: Can you bring those elements into those conversations? I sold effectively because I brought those elements into my conversations with my clients. we became humans talking to humans, it seems simple. Somehow, it’s not. bringing that into the networking conversations is so important because it invites genuine connection, genuine connection.

[00:30:11] Lesson 9: Cultivate Curiosity.

[00:30:11] Diana White: Lesson number nine, cultivate curiosity.
[00:30:15] Garry McLinn: Yes, it kind of ties in a little bit with number six, I’m realizing. but I think it’s different, in some ways. I always want to know more. I always want to understand more about where somebody comes from, what motivates them, what their full picture of themselves is.
[00:30:32] Garry McLinn: I’ll tell a story. I had somebody on a performance improvement plan. Fast forward to the end, they were wildly successful, but in between one and part the end, my co manager and I learned so much about this individual and about how we weren’t serving them because I wasn’t curious enough to unpack Why they were missing targets.
[00:30:56] Garry McLinn: the performance plan structure that we have is well thought out and done by some really brilliant people at the center of our organization. it invited conversations that, helped my co manager and I understand what we were missing. This person has a very literal approach to instruction, and we simply needed to change our language and keep that in mind.
[00:31:19] Garry McLinn: And then they were able to be successful, right? That taught me to be curious, to do more, to go further. it’s hard when things get crazy, in the thick of a fall sales season, when things are fast, it’s hard to pause for that curiosity to say, is there more to this? but it’s important, because if we miss that opportunity, we might miss. An employee who could become a leader in our organization, who could become, the next solution to a larger problem because we just didn’t ask enough questions.
[00:31:51] Garry McLinn: So, it also fills my cup, when we are able to learn more about each other and leverage that into success, that’s the thing that, gets me out of bed in the morning. It’s the best. I love that. So, I’ll always be curious.
[00:32:03] Diana White: I think that’s one of the reasons why we do this podcast. I think the whole team will always be curious.

[00:32:09] Lesson 10: Respecting all of the above, trust your gut and be willing to stand in your convictions.

[00:32:09] Diana White: Final lesson,
[00:32:11] Diana White: Lesson number 10, respecting all of the above. Trust your gut and be willing to stand in your convictions.
[00:32:19] Garry McLinn: So, the theme of everything I’ve said so far is empathy, empathy, empathy,
[00:32:25] Garry McLinn: Lead with empathy, lead with vulnerability. The danger there is that sometimes you can second guess yourself in the Pursuit of that empathy, there are times when it’s okay to say, this is what I know. This is what’s right. And this is what we’re going to do, if you can keep all those one through nine at the core of how you lead. then when you have those moments,
[00:32:53] Garry McLinn: You can be confident that you are making the right choice with the information at hand, there’s no universal solution to the doubt question. There’s nothing that’s ever going to tell you, you’re 100 percent sure that this is right? You can only do your best with the information at hand. So, you need to trust that, and you need to be able to say, this is something I believe is the right answer right now with everything in front of me.
[00:33:17] Garry McLinn: I know that I’m an empathic leader. I know that I’m somebody who, leads with authenticity and vulnerability, who makes space for adversity, who keeps inclusivity at the heart of everything, and who’s growing with his team, respecting all of that. I also know that this is the right choice right now, and this is what we’re going to do.
[00:33:33] Garry McLinn: Because if we don’t have that, then all you really are, is a counselor.
[00:33:37] Garry McLinn: And it’s important. The counselor role is crucial. We need that. But a leader needs to be able to make decisions. And for me, the reason why those one through nine are so important is it gives me that ground to stand on to say, I am confident that this is the right choice. This is what we’re going to do.
[00:33:54] Diana White: Well, last outlier question. What if you had to unlearn and don’t say opera singing? I hope you didn’t unlearn that.
[00:34:04] Garry McLinn: No, in fact, afterwards I’ll send you a video. I still sing every now and then. I love it. No, unlearn.
[00:34:13] Garry McLinn: Bias is a big one. I think we probably could spend an hour on it or more. bias is a big one. I think I had to unlearn, the way that I viewed people. I really do think that the chemo was incredibly instructive in that space.
[00:34:32] Garry McLinn: I don’t know. It’s hard to put my finger on, that because I always have had inclusivity at the heart of me. but I wasn’t always living it the way that I’m aware of now. I think there’s always room to grow. I’m not the world’s most inclusive leader,
[00:34:44] Garry McLinn: I’m going to try to be that person always, but I’m going to miss it sometimes. unlearning some bias about, you know, where you’re at in life. I came into an organization that was hiring people fresh out of college, and I was in my 30s. So, I was like, okay, I know myself, right? And in fact, most people don’t. Boy was I wrong. boy, did I learn so much about what I didn’t know when I was younger. it was so cool to have that experience and be humbled by that. what did I have to unlearn more recently? Pivoting away from bias is doubt. it’s in the hospital syndrome, you know?
[00:35:24] Garry McLinn: I’m learning it more and more every day that my contributions are valid. My thoughts and ideas are important and, need to make it out of my face and into the world, and to stop second guessing that, for a lot of time the pursuit of humility, is something that I was really intentional about.
[00:35:43] Garry McLinn: now can I honor that and also not second guess myself and be confident with, the contributions that I have, and to get that doubt out of the picture. I think that’s, it’s, it’s bias and doubt. Those two things.
[00:35:58] Diana White: I too get caught up in that whole, how do I want to say this? viewers and listeners, it’s not because, or like, how do I not get cancelled? It’s because there are so many words you can use in the English language that can really drive the point home.
[00:36:15] Diana White: When you know that and you really want to show people what you mean to say, you want to look for those right words.
[00:36:22] Diana White: So, I get it. I love it. Gary, tell us where we can find you. What are you working on? What are you doing?
[00:36:28] Garry McLinn: you can certainly check out my blog. I am a neophyte when it comes to blogging, so don’t judge my format. but there’s some writing on there that. I think it’s pretty good.
[00:36:35] Garry McLinn: it’s left leaning loquacity, if you Google that. loquacity is L O Q U A C I T Y. The whole title is left leaning loquacity. it means somebody who’s left leaning and talks too much, in case you didn’t get that picture from this interview. Um, uh, it’s a Wix site, so if you just Google that, you’ll find me.
[00:36:53] Garry McLinn: I try to publish weekly. There’s a lot of writing in that space about the time where I was undergoing treatment. So, if that’s something you’re curious about, I kept that writing very positive and very forward thinking. So, you can find me there. I’m on LinkedIn. So that’s the other place to find me. I’m sure we can throw a link in to the bio.
[00:37:13] Garry McLinn: And yeah, I’ll just be doing my thing over at EF, trying to help people find the most of themselves and traveling and enjoying the world. And that’s where I’ll be.
[00:37:19] Diana White: I want to thank my guest, Gary McLinn, for sharing his lessons with us today.
[00:37:23] Diana White: You’ve been listening to 10 Lessons Learned. This episode is produced by Robert Hossary and Cody Comeau. Please tell us what you think of today’s lessons. You can email us at podcast@10lessonslearned.com. That’s podcast at one zero lessonslearned.com. Go ahead and hit that like button, subscribe, and turn on the notification bell.
[00:37:46] Diana White: So, you don’t miss an episode of the only show that makes you wiser. Lesson by lesson.
[00:37:52] Diana White: Take care, everybody.

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