Career Lessons – Fatemah Mirza

Siebe Vanderzee: Hello and welcome to our podcast, lessons Learned to Advance Your Career. This is a new segment of our global podcast named 10 Lessons Learned. In this new program, we dive into the wisdom of professionals who have navigated the highest, the lows, and the turning points in their careers. We cover it all, the good, the bad, and the ugly because as we all know, success in your career doesn’t typically happen by accident.
It happens lesson by lesson.
My name is Siebe Vanderzee, and I’m your host. I’m a corporate executive recruiter with more than 25 years of experience helping companies find the best possible talent and coaching people to lend their next hopefully perfect job.
Our guest today is [00:01:00] Fatemah Mirza. Fatemah is a certified Resume Master and the powerhouse behind Career Tuners, a successful career services firm she founded more than 15 years ago.
Her work has helped thousands of professionals break into top tier organizations, including Fortune 500 companies, big four consulting firms, the United Nations, and even the White House. Curious what job was filled there? Fatemah career tools and templates have been downloaded more than 200,000 times.
Confirming her reputation for delivering measurable results. In addition, Fatemah is also a successful author and TEDx speaker. You can learn a lot more about Fatemah Mirza on our website. 10 lessons learned.com. Hello, Fatemah. Thank you for joining us. How are you?
Fatemah Mirza: I’m good Siebe. How are you?
Siebe Vanderzee: Wonderful. I’m really looking forward to our [00:02:00] conversation.
Of course. We, you and I have spoken before. I know what you’re doing and, very impressed, with what you’re doing. And I’m also curious what motivated you to become a certified Resume master? How did that come about?
Fatemah Mirza: So, when I first started resume writing, I mean a lot of it was like self-taught, but I felt that the credential would definitely, you know, give some weight to what I was doing.
And I had to do, this exam where I presented for executive level resumes that I have written for real people and write like a small paper on like. I chose the format and the design and the words and everything that I did. I had to explain the client’s backstory, and I passed the exam and then I was able to get the credential.
Siebe Vanderzee: Yeah. Interesting. And then, of course I’m familiar with some of your templates, but downloaded more than 200,000 times. Did you ever expect that, that there were that many people that knocked on your door and say, [00:03:00] help me out?
Fatemah Mirza: You know, I think it’s more of like a time factor. Like, because just because I’ve been doing it for so long, I’ve been sharing my resources for so long.
So, it seems like a lot, like all at once. But it’s over like several, several years. Right. And I’m sure that number is higher. So basically, that’s like the main, you know, hook on my website. If people want to kind of get some free help, they can download one of my, one of my templates. Now things have evolved so that I incorporate a little bit of AI into the templates.
I teach them how they can use AI to empower themselves. And yeah, so it’s, it seems big, but it’s not like given the number of years I’ve been doing this.
Siebe Vanderzee: Yeah. And when you say that, by the way, ai, uh, how do you look at the impact AI has and will have on recruitment on both the side of the recruiter and on the side of the job seeker?
Fatemah Mirza: That’s a very complicated answer, and it, it’s, I think it’s very powerful if the AI has been trained appropriately. But [00:04:00] unfortunately, there just isn’t enough literature on the internet, which is what Chat GPT has been trained on, right? Like all the data of the internet, there just is not enough literature on the internet that specifically serves the most underserved populations.
So, if you have, some blemish, I like to call it in your resume based on job hopping or unemployment due to, for example, mental health issues. There’s just not enough literature out there that that helps people understand exactly how to turn those blemishes into success stories.
Right. So, I, I volunteer with a couple of, of shelters where a lot of the, a lot of my clients, they have history of incarceration, substance use, psychotic breakdowns after, pregnancy, you know, all kinds of issues that are so normal and so real. And everybody deals with these kinds of things in one way or another, whether directly or [00:05:00] through their loved ones.
And it’s just a shame that they’re. There just isn’t enough literature on the internet to talk about, like, Hey, yeah, okay, so you violated a restraining order. Here’s how to talk about it. Here’s how to show that you’ve grown from that experience. Hey, you have, you know, you were incorrectly diagnosed, so you started using substances.
Here’s how to talk about how that’s, impacted your employment, and so. AI will give you like damaging advice. Sometimes even it’ll be like, Hey, just be honest and be like, but which is like not, not, not to say you should lie, but there’s definitely a way to talk about these circumstances in a way that serves you, especially in the interview where you’re, you know, we’re right before the background check.
You’re expected to kind of be transparent and everything. So, I think if we can retrain some of these tools to kind of take into account. This very real stuff that everybody goes through, mental health issues, job loss, you know, recessions being laid off, [00:06:00] being fired, uh, legal troubles, divorce, et cetera, then I think we would be in a much better place.
With that being said, if you’re like a fairly traditional candidate, if you’re. Just out ta school, you know, you’ve, you have like a fairly traditional resume and, and career trajectory. I think it can be a very powerful tool, but you should always take it with a pinch of salt because it’s been trained on a set of data that we don’t know how robust it is based on the situation you might be, um, navigating.
So, definitely ask people in your space, how your resume looks and how your interview answers sound and definitely get that human feedback because I don’t think we’re quite there yet. But it is definitely a very powerful tool that can supplement your writing and interview prep.
Siebe Vanderzee: I like the way you say it because of course it’s inevitable, AI is here. And at the same time, job seekers, have to adjust. And in some cases, as you know, it can lead to frustration. Hey, I’m not talking to a [00:07:00] real person and, and, you know, they don’t interpret my information correctly. And on the other hand, we are of course living in the era of AI and it’s going to.
Take over more and more. So, we have to be prepared now. Yeah. Lessons learned. And we will learn about ai. But before we get to your lessons, is there perhaps a lesson that you have learned in your life, in your career that you wish you would’ve learned when you were, can I say 25 years old?
Fatemah Mirza: Yeah. So, I mean, this is really personal, but I, I, I did lose my mom recently.
Oh, and as you know, as a person with her personality, I think she was very different from me, and we had a little bit of a hard time kind of understanding each other and relating to each other because we just have such vastly different personalities. But I think if I was to go back in time to when I was 25, I think that’s the lesson that I would try to implement is [00:08:00] to just be more empathetic to my mom.
And you know, I think this is a lesson that definitely ties into our careers as well. Yes, there’s boundaries in the workspace. Yes, we have to be professional, but there’s no reason why we cannot create a space for empathy, sincerity, and integrity, especially when our colleagues seem to be very different from us.
Rather than dismissing people as like, oh my God, she’s so weird. Or like, she’s so di, what’s wrong with her? Why? Like, what’s her like weirdo thought, thought process behind saying something like that. You know, we can just. Really slow down and, and see that these people are ultimately human and they have their own struggles and egos and passions and, sense a sense of, um, what’s the word?
Like self-preservation and maybe what strikes us as weird is just like a, a defence mechanism or they’re just trying to preserve their own personal integrity in a way that makes sense to them, you know?
Siebe Vanderzee: Yeah. Well, first of all, I’m sorry to hear about your [00:09:00] mother, at the same time what you’re talking about.
Empathy and expressing empathy. I think that is extremely important and you and I both know in the process of people that are looking for a job, the desperation sometimes that they have, even if they don’t express it that way, it’s just human nature. Oh my God, I have to find a job. I have to be able to take care of my family, pay the bills, et cetera.
Okay. Find a job, et apply for the job. No, it’s many times much more complicated for people. So, I, I sincerely, appreciate your lesson about empathy and, it is something that should be part of the job search process. It’s not always. There at least, you know, I don’t hear it from everybody hiring site or, or even, job seekers.
But, yeah, I do appreciate it.

Lesson 1: The Hidden Job Market Still Hires Faster Than Job Boards

Siebe Vanderzee: Let’s move to lesson number one. the hidden job market still hires [00:10:00] faster than job boards. Interesting. lesson, what do you mean? What is your thought behind that?
Fatemah Mirza: Well, you know, like you, you, you said ai, it’s, it’s here, it’s becoming ubiquitous. With that being said, there’s nothing that beats that human connection, right?
So, Job boards, you can apply, you can, you know, definitely get jobs that way. But the success rate and the time that it takes to get those jobs, it’s a lot lower than if you do some, warm outreach where you’re really being human and you’re, and you’re networking with people and you’re, uh, identifying who decision makers are your target companies, and requesting information.
About what they’re working on, about, how you can position yourself better and your resume and in your interview answers. So, these aren’t like, casual hellos. They’re not here take a look at my resume and give me advice. These are not like low effort bombardment. It’s, it’s, it has to be very strategic, and it has to make it [00:11:00] really easy for the person on the receiving end to respond in a positive manner, which I think a lot of people struggle with.
Siebe Vanderzee: Is it, is it a matter of expressing your passion for a company or the job that is open at that time, or is it more personal to say, Hey, your background connects to my background. You went to the same school or lived in the same city or state? How do you see that as far as how you connect.
Fatemah Mirza: Yeah, I think, I think a little bit of both.
the way, the way that I have kind of boiled it down into a best practice is just to ask like a very easy to answer question. So, a question that’s difficult to answer is like, Hey, could you take a look at my resume and let me know if there’s an opportunity? That’s a very difficult question to answer because.
If you think about the other person, they’re probably on their cell phone. They’re probably looking at a tiny screen. They’re probably not going to be able to read your resume properly. [00:12:00] They’re probably getting lots of messages like that. They have to think if, okay, let’s say they, they are on their desktop, or let’s say they actually take the time to look through your resume on their phone.
Then what do they have to do? They have to think, okay, is there a position that matches who’s the head of that department? Should I forward this to them? Would it look weird? Does it look like I’m asking for a favor? Like it’s just so much work and so many questions you have to ask before you can respond positively.
So, if you instead make it easy for them, If it’s a recruiter, you can definitely do that because that’s, you know, that’s. Yeah, parcel of their job. You can say, here’s my resume, please keep me on file. Like that’s easy because everything they’re doing is built in with their applicant tracking system.
They can quickly just download your resume to their applicant tracking system. It’s not a big deal, but if it’s like, say, like a chief sales officer and you’re looking for a sales management position, if you do something like that, like it’s, it’s. You are not making it easy for them to say yes.
And something that would be easier would be something like, Hey, I, I see that, such and such thing is happening [00:13:00] with the economy. And, you know, I, I, I see that the types of companies that you’re working for. This is the general effect that it’s happening. Are you guys experiencing something similar because you’ve, you, you are showing that passion because you’ve done that research.
And then the second thing is you are also showing that you have something in common because you’re passionate about growing that company. Or you can even mention like, hey, as a fellow Bruin, like, you know, I went to UCLA, so as a fellow Bruin or as a fellow Haddi, like I’m from Habad. So, What, whatever it is, you, you can definitely tie that in.
And then the question is easy to answer because then they just say yes or no. And then once they answer, they are justifying that they like you because why are they making that extra effort to answer your, your question, right? It’s, they’re justifying, oh, I must like this person. That’s why I’m, it’s just like, like a psychological trick, right?
You ask for a small favor like that and then
Siebe Vanderzee: it’s, it’s such an important point. I mean, I receive on a daily basis, I want to say at least 20 [00:14:00] emails from good people looking for a job. I literally don’t have the time to talk to 20 people every day about them. But if their background indeed connects to my background, like you said, they went to the same school, they came from the same town or country or whatever it may be, or.
anything that is in common, and I always say this jokingly, but if somebody leaves me a voicemail, I will actually call that person back. I shouldn’t say that right? In a podcast, but I mean it because it’s, it’s, it goes back to what you said earlier, the empathy to say, Hey, there is a link and, I think also, it’s important for job seekers to have confidence in who they are, what they can do.
And at the same time on the recruiting, the hiring manager side to show respect for individuals, it, it, it’s easily to get lost, but if you find common ground somewhere, I agree. That could be very helpful. Have you ever yourself dealt with, ever faced career challenges, where you [00:15:00] were stuck and wasn’t able to land the next job?
Have you gone through that yourself?
Fatemah Mirza: Yeah, definitely. you know, I think this is something so real, everybody goes through it but having that warm network of people that understand what you’re passionate about, it, it always does help. So, I mean, I have a lot of really close friends that I know. If anything happens to me, they would be able to kind of help me out with, with job hunting.
So, I think it’s. It’s important to have like a big network of like personal friends as well. But beyond that, I think, you know, even my casual acquaintances know that I’m very passionate.
Siebe Vanderzee: Your network. Yeah,
Fatemah Mirza: yeah. Helping, helping job seekers, helping, especially people who, maybe disadvantaged.
not artificially like, ooh, what’s, what’s in it for me, kind of thing. But just, just because it’s, it’s something so exciting to me. I love talking about it and, and I think people just naturally pick up and I would probably be the first person they would think of if there’s ever a position where, you know, helping people systematically kind of take [00:16:00] charge of their careers, I think I, I would be naturally, just because I talk about it so much.
Siebe Vanderzee: Uh, but I can tell and, and, and it, it works the same for me. And I know there are many other people that are recruiters, that, that have that passion and, and again, the empathy. So, I, I appreciate what you’re saying.

Lesson 2: Negotiate the Role Before You Negotiate the Salary

Siebe Vanderzee: lesson number two, negotiate the role before you negotiate the salary. I like it. Please explain your thoughts.
Fatemah Mirza: Yeah, so I think, you know, if. You go into a conversation where you’re like, this is it. I’m not what, you know, I’m not accepting anything below this. Then what ha what can happen is you might be pigeonholing yourself as like, oh, this person’s an expensive candidate. Without them really getting a chance to understand the value that you’re bringing to the table.
So, you can definitely, you know. If you’re sought out by a recruiter and they’re like, Hey, we have this position that pays like $80,000 a year or [00:17:00] whatever, you can definitely be like, well, you know, I don’t think I would accept anything below. Almost double that. But I want to be respectful of your time and, and, and be upfront with that.
But with that being said, I would still love to know, you know, what you’re working on and see if there’s anything I can do to provide value. So, then you can, you can. Start, diagnosing what they’re, what they’re hiring for. So, if they’re, they’re trying to hire a position and they’re trying to pay $80,000 for it, you can kind of help them see that perhaps increasing their budget and bringing in somebody with a little bit more experience, with a little bit of a broader skillset is of value to them and is going to get them better business outcomes.
This is more difficult to do if the company that you’re working for is hiring for like a very structured role. Like if you’re going and applying for like an entry level position at Facebook or Amazon, you’re probably going to have less success.
However, if you’re looking for a senior management position or you’re applying for a smaller company [00:18:00] where you know that. Things aren’t quite as structured or, you know, hierarchical, you might have more success. So, if you’re being offered this position, let’s say it’s a marketing job, and they’re saying, Hey, we want somebody to come in and do our marketing and we’re paying $80,000, and you know that, that’s not really going to get them the results that they want.
Let’s say they’re like a small company and then you say, I appreciate, you know, the, the, the budget that you might be working with. However, given that your primary criteria for success right now is that you increase your, you know, client base. I think hiring somebody who has strengths in tapping into X, Y, Z verticals or X, Y, Z channels and, uh, might be pertinent.
and just hiring somebody entry level who’s going to do like social media marketing, probably, you know, unless they’re very experienced, will not move the needle for you the way that you want. so like, how, how do you think about, you know, what do you think about hiring [00:19:00] somebody with a little bit more experience in the spaces?
So, if you negotiate the role, you know, then you can come back in and then you are going to help them see the value that you bring to the table. And that’s an extreme example, right? That’s like a double doubling, of a salary example. But even if the difference is small, even if it’s just 20 k, just highlighting that you have success in the problem that they’re actually trying to solve, right? So, like reading between the lines of the job description, understanding what’s being hinted at, what business problem is being hinted at, in, in, in the job description. And it’s usually in, in the first few lines, you know, where you can kind of understand what their motivations are for hiring and then speaking to that, it’s going to make negotiating your salary just like a walk in the park.
It’s, it’s, it’s going to be a piece of cake.
Siebe Vanderzee: The motivation for hiring at the beginning in the process interview process? I can see that, but I think typically when it comes to discussing the compensation, that’s more towards the, uh. The [00:20:00] second half or the latter part of the discussion. Right, right. I like who you are.
I like what you have to offer. I know you want to get paid, but let’s talk about that later. In other words, as a recruiter, as a hiring manager, I first want to make sure you are the right candidate. Before we get into the negotiations, is do you look at it the same way or do you say No, start early with negotiating on your salary?
Fatemah Mirza: No, I definitely agree with you. But if the, the offer is so far outside, that would be like, listen, this is like a waste of time for both of us, you know? Then I think just having that clarification upfront where you’re not giving a figure, but you’re like, I, I don’t know if I’d be able to, to, you know, accept any position, you know, quite as low, but if you like, we can, we can continue discussing.
So, you’re upfront. But yeah, I mean, if, if the difference is just like 15, 20%, you, I don’t think you have to have that, that conversation quite so early
Siebe Vanderzee: now in the United States, it’s not always. [00:21:00] Appropriate for, an interviewer to ask a person, well, how much money are you currently making?
Fatemah Mirza: Right?
Siebe Vanderzee: Right. So, the question can be placed in a different format and say, what are your expectations?
Or, you know, what are you hoping for or in a, in a different way than asking specifically, how much are you making right now? At least in the United States, there are many other countries where that discussion is more open. so. To be well prepared, and I think that may be something for many candidates that they have to be mentally prepared for that conversation.
And knowing that the compensation element of the discussion is of course, vital in the end for the hiring company and for the candidates, and at the same time. It’s, I almost want to say sometimes a bit of a vague discussion, and it comes towards the end after the hiring company says, yeah, you could be the right person for this job.
And then, oh yeah, oh yeah, let’s talk about [00:22:00] compensation. But it’s important, and I think that’s the point that you’re making as well, for candidates to be well prepared and to understand that this process of negotiating. Is part of the interview process, even if it’s not always, like I said, very transparent.
Fatemah Mirza: Yeah. And if you want to add some transparency Yeah. You cannot ask people, you know what ha I think it’s illegal actually in most states to Exactly,
Siebe Vanderzee: exactly.
Fatemah Mirza: But if you, if you’re asking like your friends, like say for example, you want to know how much, you know, somebody’s making at a company, just because you want to understand like, what’s the market rate right now for somebody with your experience, right?
Siebe Vanderzee: Yeah. Yeah.
Fatemah Mirza: So, if, if you, like, obviously I’m not going to ask my friends like, Hey, how much, well, maybe I would because my friends are, are chill, like that. But if, if, you know, if it was somebody, I didn’t know that, well, I would maybe say, you know, Hey, I am, I’m applying for jobs that are paying, you know, X, Y, Z amount and this is what my background is.
Like, do you think that’s [00:23:00] fair? Do you like, what can I do to increase that? Like, do you have any advice for me? And then I think people will be upfront and they’ll say, yeah, I’m making like this much and this is what I’ve done. And because you’ve volunteered something about yourself and you’re showing that you’re not trying to.
You know, pigeonhole them into some, Economic class. You’re just trying to be, and I think people are getting more relaxed about these conversations. People are like, you know what, yeah, we should stick together. We should know what’s going on. And you know, I think especially, people who are, identifying, a specific races or, women, you know.
We, we should, uh, we know that systematically we have been discriminated against with respect to salary. So, I think just having those conversations with each other, it’s really critical so that we can understand how we can kind of, even the playing field and not get disadvantaged in any way.
Siebe Vanderzee: Again, it’s important to be prepared, right?
And, and sometimes the discussion is, let’s say, vague, but you as a candidate, of course, you have certain [00:24:00] expectations, and, and perhaps hopes that you say, Hey, hopefully I can get to this number. And at the same time, the company is working within certain limits as far as they can go. Uh, it’s unlikely they’re going to pay one individual more than another person that works for them in the same role, a colleague.
So, it has to, it has to fit together. I always use the line, you’re not going to get paid more than what your boss is getting paid, right? That’s unlikely. So, you got to be realistic about it, but it’s an important, very important issue.
And to strategically position yourself for that negotiation, uh, is extremely important. So very helpful lesson.

Lesson 3: Know Your Red Flags and Neutralize Them Early

Siebe Vanderzee: Lesson number three. Know your red flags and neutralize them early. Wow. So important. Uh, but please go ahead to your thoughts on that.
Fatemah Mirza: Yeah. I think a lot of people aren’t really aware of what red flags they may have.
I mean, yeah. Some of them are really obvious, like if you have an employment gap of, you know, [00:25:00] more than a year, that’s really obvious. Okay, I know how to talk about this. And, uh, you can do a lot of research and, you know, figure out how are other people who have taken, let’s say parental leave talked about this, or how are other people who have had to take time off to do like a state management for the, you know, their, their parent who may have passed away.
Like, how are other people talking about this bereavement period and this estate management period? So, that’s not. That’s like fairly like standard, right? But there’s some red flags where it kind of sneaks up on you and, and you’re, you don’t even know like how you’re being perceived. And some, it’s, it’s just important for somebody like your most honest and critical friend who will just be super upfront with you for them to kind of go through your resume and give you feedback like, yo, you sound distracted, dude.
Like, you do not sound like you know what you’re doing. Like what, whatever it is. Like whoever you trust to be that upfront with you, you should definitely have them look at your resume. And if you don’t have somebody like that, then you can always reach out to me, and I’d be happy to advise. But [00:26:00] some of the, the red flags that you might have is like.
You might be sounding too much like a high level manager when the role is like very technical that you’re applying for. So, then this red flag is this person doesn’t know their tech. They need a big budget, and they need people under them who are like engineers and they don’t know how to do the work themselves.
That’s a big red flag. And so, you wouldn’t know that until somebody has that honest conversation with you. Or another red flag could be that. You look too technical and you don’t know how to lead at a high level. And, and these achievements that you have, that you grew this, you know, the market share by 25%.
Hey, this is just a, you know, this was happening to the entire economy. I, I can’t give you any credit for this. What are you doing at a director level that. Contributed to this growth. You know, your resume doesn’t have any of that. You sound like a hands-on manager. You don’t sound like an executive. All of these red flags, you know, that you could be giving off not just in your resume, but in your interview answers.
You need somebody to sit down with you [00:27:00] and be like, this is how you sound. I, I had to have this conversation with a client recently where, you know, they, they were so passionate about their work, so passionate to the point that they literally, and, and I, please excuse my language, really sounded like an asshole because they, they were so attached to their ideas that they would just get upset if somebody was, you know, uh.
And, and in interviews it would, it would come across, they would be like, yeah. So, I had, I had this idea and it was in, in implementation, but it got shot down. And, you know, like you, you sound like you’re difficult to work with. You don’t sound pleasant. And I knew that wasn’t the case. Like I knew genuinely they were, they were working so hard and they were genuinely well loved.
And when I, when I had that conversation with them that, Hey, you sound very difficult to work with, you’re not going to get hired if your interviews sound like this. Then they’re able to like, okay, how do I, how do I sound more like a team player?
Siebe Vanderzee: Do you, do you say that literally to people?
Fatemah Mirza: You sound like an asshole.
Yeah. I’m sorry.
Siebe Vanderzee: No, no. And, and [00:28:00] honestly, I, I like that, and I was trained by people that were very direct. Right? No, sent no sentence without the F word. You know what I mean? And at the same time, it can be very helpful not to use cuss words and say that’s the solution, but Right. You make it clear and in a helpful way.
Right. You’re not degrading them and saying, you know, this is what you have to have to pay attention to. I’m also curious, uh, Fatemah, here in the United States, typically a resume, could be sometimes one page. Two pages. Mm-hmm. If it goes beyond two pages, do you think that is in the United States, do you think that is appropriate, acceptable, or do you emphasize, make sure you use two pages for your resume?
Fatemah Mirza: It definitely depends on the industry. So, if you’re in an industry where you’re doing like research and development, you have to have a really long resume because you’re detailing your research and your patents and everything, right? Then you’re doing like a [00:29:00] CV blend if you’re doing, if you’re, uh, you know, transitioning from a very, they’re called like the SAM Fields, science, academia, and medicine.
If you’re, if you’re transitioning from any of those to even like. More of a private sector job where you’re doing that, but at a higher level, like let’s say you’re applying for a hospital director position, you still have to show that you know, medicine, right? Yes. So, you still have to have like all of those credentials, and you cannot fit a doctor’s credentials on two pages and talk about their hospital administration work, right?
Like, it’s just not possible. So definitely it’s a case by case thing. however, with that being said, If someone is really struggling to get their resume down to a specific number of pages, I would say don’t worry about it too much because the first, the first reader of your resume is going to be an applicant tracking system or some other kind of parsing mechanism that doesn’t care how long your resume is.
They just care that you have the required qualifications and the required skills. So, if you need to have [00:30:00] more space to fit that in. That’s okay. Just make sure that whatever is the most critical component of your history, like whatever’s going to really make the case for you being hired, is in like the first half of the first page.
So, when a human being opens your resume immediately, it’s obvious what your credentials are and how you can do the job. And then the rest of the content is there to support that. And I know that’s like a controversial, you know, piece of advice, but at the end of the day, like it’s hard to get hired.
And if you’re so worried about your resume being some length that you’re not even applying and you know, you’re removing very critical credentials in order to get your resume to some arbitrary length. don’t, don’t, don’t, uh, just focus on what’s going to actually make a difference, which is.
Loading the first half of that first page with your most important, you know, credentials and then, and then just applying.
Siebe Vanderzee: Yeah. as you probably know, resumes are structured maybe differently in different countries. Yes. I [00:31:00] see sometimes a lot more personal information on resumes from people, let’s say in Europe or in Asia.
in the United States. I want to say we don’t want to see that information. Yes. You know your birthdate, your family situation. Try to keep it neutral, focused on the individual. And at the same time, like I said, I remember, uh, recruiting in Asian countries. Sometimes resumes were 11 pages or longer, and they provide a lot of detailed information.
That is something here in the United States, again, hiring companies, they have to, in that sense, stick to the law. It has to be focused. And, uh, again, with this lesson to know your red flags and neutralize them. I think that’s extremely important and simply set. And I always pointed myself, nobody is perfect, right?
Yeah. that’s, that’s important to understand. And people don’t have. Necessarily a new job every year. So, if they have a resume from five years ago, it makes sense if [00:32:00] they’re in the job market, again, to update that document as well, to make sure it fits with the era we are living in, not to say, oh yeah, that was five or 10 years ago.
That can be helpful as well.

Affiliate Break

Siebe Vanderzee: We’re talking today with Fatemah Mirza, a Certified Resume Master, and a powerhouse behind Career Tuners, a successful career services firm sharing her lessons learned for career advancement.
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Lesson 4: Decode the Job Description to Expose the Hiring Manager’s Real KPIs

Siebe Vanderzee: Moving on lesson number four, decode the, the job description to expose the hiring manager’s real KPI, critical performance indicator indicators. Uh, what are your thoughts on that?
Fatemah Mirza: Yeah, so this goes back to the salary negotiation point that we made earlier.
If you’re looking at the job description, and the first couple of lines really focus on some, you know, problem that they want you to come in and solve. And you do have to read between the lines. Like, it’ll say things like, expand our market, or it’ll say things like, identify insights for X, Y, Z, but if you really figure out like why? Why are they writing this? Like, what is going on that would. Make them choose that line as like the very first line of the job description, right? That’s going to give you some idea of what problems you want to talk about in the interview. Hey, I have experience solving this problem in the past.
So, if they’re talking about like, you know, tapping into a [00:34:00] new vertical or whatever, then you know that. Probably they’ve done that in the past and it wasn’t successful, or they’re gearing up for some really solid growth. So, in addition to saying that, oh, I can do that, well, you want to say, Hey, I’ve built, my team to do that well, and all of the problems that happen when you do that thing well, I can solve those as well.
So for example, if they are, for example, market, you know, expanding into the East Asian market, and they do it successfully, what are some of the side effects that could happen that can cause further business problems? maybe they need a bigger team and maybe they need more competency for, you know, whatever that industry is.
Let’s say textile manufacturing. so, then they, they need somebody who can then solve those problems. So, you, you have to show that you can, you have that kind of fortune telling scale almost, and that you can resolve issues as they come, as they successfully achieve those, operational objectives that they’re trying to achieve.
So that’s what I mean by you want to decode the job [00:35:00] description, and this is something that’s really important to do before the interview. Yes. Okay. You know, you, you want to read the job description as you’re applying, but I think it’s okay to be a little bit careless because you’re probably trying to apply as quickly as possible.
Before the interview you really want to look at it like it’s a brand new piece of Shakespeare and you’re trying to identify like, what did Shakespeare mean when he was using this word? You know, you want to, you want to really get into it, you want to look at what kind of literature they’re publishing on their website and, if they have any, if they have any, uh, financial statements.
You want to go through those. If they have any other information that you can go through to identify why exactly are they focusing on this in the job description, do it because it’s really going to help in the interview.
Siebe Vanderzee: I, I think it’s critically important the more you as a candidate know about the company where you are applying.
And I want to say the challenges that they face.
I remember years ago working for a company and the owner of the company, [00:36:00] whenever, she met with the client and I was just sitting there, uh, she would ask, so what are some of your challenges? What are you working on? And it was just an introductory question.
Then the answer from her was, oh, we can help you with that. And I thought, that’s not even the reason why we’re here. Right? But it connected right away and she was very successful in connecting with the people of our client companies because it was not only expressing an interest, but if you know what is going on.
I also think that that sometimes. Maybe more than sometimes, quiet, quite a few times when you see a job description, it’s generic. I want to say it, it it’s for that role, for that position. And perhaps the company has been using that same job description for quite a while and they may have add a new, you know, technical term, let’s say AI into it, because that wasn’t there five years ago.
The hiring person is not always the same person [00:37:00] that actually writes the job description, right? Depending on the, the, the size of the company, the organization, it could be hr, it could be a, a, a coworker that created the job description. And when you meet with the person that’s going to be. Making the decision to hire you or not.
If that clicks, and again, you can do your research. You said it better than I can, but it, it’s very helpful to be prepared. I think sometimes, you know, to keep it simple, look at LinkedIn, look at where the person you’re interviewing with has, has worked in the past or what he or she has done in their career for that company.
Uh, and perhaps you find a specific interest that they have it, it can be helpful. It doesn’t make, always make the decision to say, wow, you know, that we are expanding in a certain market, therefore you get the job. No, that doesn’t work that way, but it shows. You as a candidate, it shows you that, that you have that interest and, and maybe the passion to say, wow, I [00:38:00] really would like to be part of that.
Many years ago, research was done in the United States on how much time recruiters take to view, a person’s resume.
And of course, now we have ai. It goes very quick, but the result was. And this is more than 10 years ago, maybe more than 15 years ago, about seven seconds.
Fatemah Mirza: Right.
Siebe Vanderzee: And I remember in our office, we were laughing about, oh, we thought it was three seconds. Well, it’s humanly impossible to read a resume in three seconds, but you understand where I’m going.
To emphasize at the top of your resume, I always use the term that’s your billboard. And if you have your value proposition there. I would say, but please disagree if you see it differently. Your key achievements that you would like to repeat in the future, is that something that, that you, let’s say, relate to?
Fatemah Mirza: Yeah, definitely. I, I do agree with you. I think it’s so, so important to identify, you know, who is reading your resume and in [00:39:00] what state, and you know. All of that. So, the first reader is not a human being. It’s, you know, whatever tool is going to parse through your resume and kind of boil you down and rank you against other people who are applying to the job.
Yeah. So, you have to make that tool easy to read your resume, loading it with the appropriate keywords and the appropriate job. experiences, making sure your titles make sense are, are in line with what you’re applying for. And if you know that the applicant tracking system is going to reject you automatically because you don’t have a critical qualification, or if you, you know, uh, don’t have the right, uh, educational background, or you don’t have enough experience, or whatever it is, if you’re a non-traditional candidate in that way, then you know, maybe applying online isn’t going to be as fruitful for you as being a little bit more aggressive with your networking, approach.
So that’s the first reader. The second reader, yeah. It’s the person who’s going to skim your resume and make sure you have the basic qualifications. So, it’s the same thing as the applicant tracking system almost, [00:40:00] uh, but they’re kind of just checking, okay, you’ve had the right job experiences in the past.
No real like major gaps in employment. Okay. You have the right educational qualifications. Okay, let’s move on. And then the next reading that you might get is, you know, before the interview or during the interview, they might be kind of looking at. Your resume a little bit more closely and kind of going through it line by line if that’s how they like to interview.
So, for each case, you have to make sure your resume is optimized. You have to make sure each line is perfect and that you can defend each line in an interview. You have to make sure that it’s easy to skim and that there’s no glaring red flags. You have to make sure that it. Front loaded, the, the billboard area of your resume should, should be good and, and it should make the case for your hiring on its own without any additional reading.
Yeah. So definitely for each state of the reading stage of the reading process, your resume should be optimized. Yes.
Siebe Vanderzee: Yeah. I, I really appreciate that. That’s very, very helpful advice as we both know, for so many people that are suddenly [00:41:00] perhaps in the job market, and oh my gosh, what do I do with my resume?
Thank you so much.

Lesson 5: Use Your Skills to Create Opportunities for Others

Siebe Vanderzee: Lesson number five. We’re going slightly in a different direction, but I, I’m very, very interested, Le lesson number five, use your skills to create opportunities for others. What has been your experience with that and, and what are your thoughts, obviously on that topic?
Fatemah Mirza: I don’t really like have a complete lesson for this one because I think I’m still kind of in process of figuring out exactly what I’m doing in this space.
But I do a big chunk of my job description right now is to work with a few women’s shelters and figure out exactly how we can improve employment outcomes and long-term career outcomes for their residents. Right. So, while. I started doing it because it was interesting and, you know, I have some, passion around helping, these residents.
It, I think it is becoming [00:42:00] like something I want to do long term, and as I’m doing it, I’m learning more about how. Nonprofit systems work, how funding in the government works, how to navigate, uh, this bureaucracy, how I, I live in Los Angeles. So how LA County and the city of LA, you know, gives funding and, what, what resources they have for, for, uh, curbing the rise in homelessness.
These are all things I would not have known in the past. And this, this is all I, now I’m learning that this is something I’m so interested in and, and, you know, figuring out how I can use AI to help, how, you know, and obviously a lot of related AI related skills that I’m learning side by side. So, my, the lesson is like, use your skill to create opportunity for others.
But I think. In retrospect, a better way to phrase that is like, just lean into your passion. Like you might, you might learn something really exciting and, and, and you know that there’s no such thing [00:43:00] as a perfect job. And I, you know, I don’t think anybody, except maybe my dad thinks that you’re going to work with one company and then retire with them.
I think we all, understand that you can. You can pivot as many times as you want and you can, you know, if, if one company or one mission is no longer fulfilling you, you can always change. And it might take a little bit of effort, but that, that it’s okay. You can change your job every three, four years if you want.
Like, nobody’s going to stop you. You know? so I think that’s the lesson is whatever you feel inclined towards, like lean into it, maybe there might be something interesting, very lucrative, very, uh, empowering there. And you will help a lot of people in doing that as well.
Siebe Vanderzee: Now, you touched on it earlier. Challenges that women have in this process.
and we’re talking again about the United States. Is that something that you recognize or is it Well, we’re almost there.
Fatemah Mirza: Yeah. I think it’s [00:44:00] very, very, difficult for women of a specific economic class to get ahead. Right. It’s because the majority of childcare falls on women. There’s more single moms than there are single dads.
Like it’s just a statistic. It’s just a fact. So, when you’re a single mom and you, let’s say, are wrongfully incarcerated because you, didn’t know that somebody was, and this, this, this happened with a real client of mine where, she was, uh, a cleaner for a company that was doing commercial cleaning for different office offices.
And the company didn’t do well during the recession, the COVID recession because, um, you know, we were not using our, our office spaces so much. Everybody was working from home. So, she was laid off.
Siebe Vanderzee: Yeah.
Fatemah Mirza: So, Some guy was like, Hey, I’ll, you know, I don’t, don’t sleep in your car alone with your child. It’s cold.
I’ll swipe you into a hotel. So, he swiped his credit card, and she was sleeping in the hotel, you know, [00:45:00] fine. She accepted some charity from, from somebody. She didn’t know that the credit card was, fraudulent. Mm-hmm. She went to jail and then she pled guilty because she was like, I’m not going to leave my kid like she in, in, in, in foster care.
Like, I have to get back to my kid. So, I think. A lot of the women that I work with that have, counts of incarceration, they quickly plead guilty because they don’t trust anybody else to take care of their child because they’re in a single parent household. And I’m sure fathers would have the same issue, you know, if, if they’re a single parent.
But the reality is there are simply more, single moms in, in America than single dads. And I think that. Knowing that you’re responsible for somebody else’s life, you have to quickly, you know, react and ensure their safety in different ways, and it can really significantly impact your, economic, uh, mobility.
Right? So, this is a pattern that I keeps seeing again and again. you know, if they’re having any postpartum psychiatric issues, they’ll quickly take whatever. [00:46:00] Makes them feel normal so that they can ensure a safe environment for their child, perhaps at great cost to their own psychiatric health down the line.
So, it, it’s not, it’s definitely a very, very gendered issue, and we’re not there yet. Especially the poorer you are, the more you’re going to feel it. The poorer you are, the less likely you are to have. an obstetrician that’s going to say again and again, Hey, postpartum psychiatry.
This is what to look out for. This is the. Depression symptoms. These are the anxiety symptoms. These are the psychosis symptoms. Look out. Look out. Look out. Look out. You’re less likely going to have a partner who’s going to be able to take time off work and go with you to those medical appointments, and the doctor is talking to them and say, Hey, you know, this is what to look out for if your wife is behaving this way, or if your girlfriend or your partner is behaving this way.
This is an indication of depression. This is an indication of psychosis. This is an Indic. This is a reality. This is so real. If you’re a mom. You are going to have differences in your psychiatric health after giving birth. It’s [00:47:00] just what happens. And if you don’t have the appropriate psychiatric care and if you don’t know what to look out for, things can spiral and you’re going to quickly put a band aid on it because you don’t want your kid to die and it’s going to, you know, this is just the harsh reality of being a mom in America.
If you have money, you can go to the right doctors, you can afford childcare. You can say, oh my God, I’m going to do harm if I don’t sleep. Like, please somebody. Watch my kid. You can hire a babysitter. You can take a nap. A lot of moms don’t have that, right? So, things, you know, we, it’s so easy to judge poor people for making these decisions that seem so egregiously harmful in the long run.
But what else would you do? You know? Yeah. When you’re in that situation, when you’re, when you’re potentially, your child might potentially freeze to death, of course you’re going to take a hotel room from like a suspicious person, you know? Yeah. Of course you’re going to plead guilty. Of course you’re going to. You know, severely damage your employment capability in the long run because for that [00:48:00] weekend, you don’t know what can happen to your child.
You’re leaving them with, you know, in in, in what? Like the foster care. Ooh. Because foster cares have such a good reputation for not damaging, you know, the psyche of our young children. Right. Please.
Siebe Vanderzee: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Fatemah Mirza: So, it. I think, yeah, this is a hugely gendered issue, and I think we should really focus on psychiatric care and making sure that young moms, especially, I mean, I’ve talked to girls who are 17, you know, 19 who have been trafficked, who have been impregnated against their will.
I mean, you know, we, we have to ensure that in cases of these. Emergencies, these most vulnerable people who are going to get hurt way beyond what the average, you know, six figure earning person is going to feel in a recession. These people get so irreversibly hurt and we, we have to ensure that there’s some safety and some security for these people because it’s not just them, [00:49:00] it’s their children.
Siebe Vanderzee: Yeah,
Fatemah Mirza: they have done no wrong, you know, not that the moms have done any wrong. I, I, I, I strongly believe that there are victims in, in, uh, a system that it, it, it systemize, these injustices. But, you know, we have to look out for, for our kids. And, and even from like an economic standpoint, it just makes sense if we have healthy, productive children who are going to school and learning and tapping into their talents, whether they’re in STEM or humanities or whatever.
As a society, we all benefit economically, we all benefit. It makes sense math wise. It makes sense. If you have a heart, it makes sense if you don’t, you know what I mean? So, yeah, it’s just the right thing to do. And if I’m not going to do it, like I’m not going to sleep at night because I have the economic capability to do it.
So that’s what the rest of my life is going to be pretty much.
Siebe Vanderzee: Well, I really appreciate your passion to help people and in particular to help women because again, your background, your knowledge [00:50:00] can be extremely helpful to people. Men and women of course. But in this case, what you explain as far as your, your passion for, for women who are dealing with challenges, highly appreciated.
I want to ask you one more question, because you have learned so many lessons and, and that’s obvious, but is there perhaps a lesson in your life that you have unlearned where you decided, you know what, I got to do it differently.
Fatemah Mirza: Yeah. Yeah. I think I used to be a really big control freak. I was a little bit of a micromanager.
I loved everything, you know, so perfect according to my, you know, standards. And I, I really had to unlearn that, hey, you know, hire people that are smarter than you and more capable than you, and just give them space to breathe. So, this, this is,
Siebe Vanderzee: that’s not easy. That’s not easy.
Fatemah Mirza: No. But I, I’m, I’m glad to say that, you know, constantly being surpassed and exceeded by people that, [00:51:00] that, you know.
I, it’s, it’s, then you get the confidence that okay, yeah. They know what they’re doing, so I don’t need to be a control freak anymore.
Siebe Vanderzee: No, no, I hear you. And I, I understand what you’re saying, but also, you know, to be competitive, there’s nothing wrong with that. Right. In a, in a business situation and say, Hey, I want to do it better, I want to do more, et cetera.
Right, right. But I hear what you’re saying and it’s, it’s. Not for everyone, but it is for many people an element of growing up and say, Hey, okay, I understand.
thank you so much, uh, of course, Fatemah, for joining us and for sharing your lessons with our global audience lessons related to, uh, career advancement.
I want to make a few closing remarks. you have been listening to our program, lessons Learned to advance your career. This episode is produced by Robert Hossary, and as always, we are supported by the Professional Development Forum. I also want to give my special thanks to our amazing team, Yi Wang, who manages our marketing and social media, and Codie Comeau, [00:52:00] our episode editor.
Our guest today is Fatemah Mirza as Certified Resume Master and the powerhouse behind career tuners and successful career services firm sharing her lessons learned to career advancement. And to our audience. I hope you enjoyed this special episode. Forget perhaps that you never miss a lesson that could end your career and perhaps your life.
Thank you for tuning into 10 lessons learned in this special segment called Lessons Learned to Advance Your Career. Goal, as always, is to make the world a little wiser, one lesson at a time. Thank you and stay safe.

Thanks to our 10 Lessons team that make our show possible: Our Episode Editor Codie Comeau, Marketing and social media managed by Yi Wang, and our Producer Robert Hossary. Sponsored as always by Professional Development Forum. You can find the www.professionaldevelopmentforum.org.

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