10 Lessons – Special – Leadership

[00:00:04] Robert Hossary: Hello and welcome to a special edition of 10 Lessons Learned. During this session, we’re continuing to try our new format, and we’d really like to know what you think of We’ll dive into our archive of more than 120 episodes and more than 1, 200 lessons learned from our distinguished guests. We want to focus specifically on big theme topics and wisdoms that have been shared by our guests globally.
[00:00:32] Robert Hossary: My name is Robert Hossary and I’m joined today by my co-hosts, Diana White and Siebe Van Der Zee. Hello, Siebe. Hello, Diana. Hi, Robert. So today we’re going to be talking about leadership. So Siebe, how about you take us through what leadership means for you, for the guests that you’ve interviewed, and we’ll just pipe in when we have something to say.
[00:00:55] Siebe Van Der Zee: Thank you, Robert. It’s a, it’s an interesting topic and interesting from the point of view that we all talk about leadership. We all know what leadership is, but if the question comes up What is leadership? Then the answer probably comes down to, it depends. And what is the situation that we’re talking about when it comes to leadership?
[00:01:19] Siebe Van Der Zee: So, you know what? I googled it. I went to Google and said, what is leadership? And one, well, one definition that was given, by Google was a definition from McKinsey, as we know, a global, very successful management consulting firm. And their definition is leadership is a set of behaviors used to help people align their collective direction to execute strategic plans and to continually renew an organization. Well, I was thinking that’s an interesting definition, but what does it mean? And of course it applies to a corporate situation, you know, set of behaviors. Yeah. That still doesn’t tell me much. And I started to think a little bit more about leadership because there is a strong strategic element when you think of leadership.
[00:02:10] Siebe Van Der Zee: If you are the leader or you’re working for a person that, is named the leader, but as a leader, you think about things, you sit back and you think about what do I want to achieve, what I want my people, my team, to achieve. And you have to come up with action steps. also, you don’t want to tell people what to do, but in fact, you want to tell people what to do.
[00:02:35] Siebe Van Der Zee: So, right? The way you do that, hopefully, is because you have the trust from the people that work with you, for you, and you can obviously guide them in certain ways, but you don’t want to walk in front of them and again, tell them what to do. That typically doesn’t work well. So, I think for our conversation as well, when we talk about leadership, in what category are we talking about leadership?
[00:02:58] Siebe Van Der Zee: Is it corporate or is it, for my part, a family situation or an emergency situation? how do you, Diana and Robert, look at leadership from your perspective?
[00:03:10] Diana White: I would say I’ve been in leadership roles for a very long time. And I think when you’ve been in leadership roles for a very long time.
[00:03:17] Diana White: It almost becomes a perfume.
[00:03:20] Diana White: it kind of permeates from you.
[00:03:22] Diana White: And you begin to be that de facto, person that people gravitate towards because they feel that you have that decisive energy. I, I could be in the middle of Dillard’s, and someone will ask me a question and I, and I have to say, you know, I don’t work here, or I don’t, I don’t know you. Like it’s, very interesting that you asked that Siebe because I do find that in every facet of my life, I’m called upon or looked upon to see what my opinion is, because I’m kind of leading, setting the tone, if you will.
[00:03:59] Diana White: So it’s interesting that you ask, and I, for people who have been leaders for a very long time, I wonder how much of our viewers and listeners have been leaders for a very long time can contest to that, that, that they find that it’s happening throughout their entire life, not just in the workplace.
[00:04:14] Robert Hossary: Two things, one, the definition that you read out, Siebe, I found very sterile.
[00:04:20] Robert Hossary: and so hence the conversation, but you know, as soon as Diana, you said, it’s like a perfume, it permeates from you. I just, it took me back and I thought, no, what, what are you talking about? And then when you explained it, the light went on. That’s exactly what happens. so, my, definition and the way that I have led.
[00:04:43] Robert Hossary: in my entire career has been to prepare the people I work with for something better, for their next step. That’s what I believe a leader should do, for me anyway, that’s what, that, that’s the philosophy I follow. Prepare them, skill them up so that they can then go on to lead, go on to whatever it is that they want to do.
[00:05:10] Robert Hossary: So, this is going to be a very interesting conversation because we’ve all got similar experiences, but different perspectives. So, that’s what, that’s what I’ve got, Siebe.
[00:05:20] Siebe Van Der Zee: No, I like it. And you cannot go wrong. And that’s what my thoughts were when it comes to leadership. You have, even in a family situation, suddenly you’re dealing with unexpected situations, let’s say.
[00:05:31] Siebe Van Der Zee: And, you know, traditionally as a parent, of course, you take the lead and take care of your kids and, and perhaps grandparents, whatever the situation may be different than being in a business situation, but the leadership skills. If you are part of a sporting team, whatever, American football or soccer or whatever it is, there are still leaders on that team.
[00:05:55] Siebe Van Der Zee: And hey, you know, you’re not the goalie, so the goalie has to stop the ball, but the strategy behind it. And that’s in a way what I’m thinking of as well, when it comes to leadership. It’s taking care of other people, guiding people, but you also have to have a plan. It’s not just in the moment. It has to be, in some cases, long term, or at least for the next, whatever, six months, we have to take care of certain things.
[00:06:19] Robert Hossary: I think it’s also to really the ability to be innately decisive. If you have the ability to be innately decisive, that means that you can think on the fly. you can create a vision of what needs to be done right away and get people to follow you to that vision.
[00:06:39] Robert Hossary: I think, yes, great leaders plan, Siebe, you’re right. but I also think that great leaders know how to pivot and be decisive in situations that catch them unawares. Agreed.
[00:06:53] Diana White: It goes both ways.
[00:06:54] Siebe Van Der Zee: I would like to add, because I don’t disagree again with what I hear from both of you, that yes, when you are experienced, you have had an opportunity to show leadership skills or develop leadership skills.
[00:07:09] Siebe Van Der Zee: That’s one thing. But if you’re dealing as a maybe relatively young individual with surprise situations, you cannot say, well, you know, I’m the leader because I’ve been the leader for the last twenty years. It may be the first time that you’re dealing with a situation. That can happen at work, as a, you know, a worker in an organization and something happens, it doesn’t have to be a disaster or negative, but we’re going to change things.
[00:07:38] Siebe Van Der Zee: We’re going to adjust things. You still need to be a leader or become a leader. And I think no matter where you are, part of leadership is that you have to be strategic. You have to look at the big picture. You have to look at the time that it’s going to take to get to certain goals. If I may, I want to think a little bit about these topics based on lessons that we received from so from some of our guests, right.
[00:08:05] Siebe Van Der Zee: And when I think of, of leadership, as we are discussing, of course, there are values that go with leadership. And many of our guests have applied to those lessons. And I will mention some of them, but in addition to values, and we’re talking about that, there are action steps that are expected from the leader.
[00:08:26] Siebe Van Der Zee: And then there are certain behaviors that our guests say, that makes a good leader.
[00:08:32] Siebe Van Der Zee: So, let’s just start, and we all have, have lessons from various guests, because the topic of leadership, has been used, as we know, by many of our guests in different situations, in different countries, but leadership is important.
[00:08:47] Siebe Van Der Zee: I have, as a first lesson, a lesson from Sheriff Paul Penzone. He is the sheriff in Maricopa County in the state of Arizona, 30 years of law enforcement experience, and his lesson, one of his lessons was, “Authority is privilege, not entitlement”. And I don’t know about you guys, but when I think about, let’s say, politics around the world, not just in one or two countries, authority for unfortunately many seems to be entitlement.
[00:09:17] Siebe Van Der Zee: And I really like the fact when a sheriff, law enforcement expert with many years of experience brings out a lesson, authority is privilege, not entitlement.
[00:09:26] Robert Hossary: I agree.
[00:09:27] Diana White: I agree.
[00:09:28] Robert Hossary: It’s definitely a privilege and I, I actually use that terminology with my team quite often, that I’m privileged to work with them because it links into so many other lessons that we’ve heard you know, should be noted that.
[00:09:46] Robert Hossary: I’m grateful to work with these people who have those skills, who make my life easy as a leader. So, I am privileged, and it should be seen as a privilege, and that’s where, things like micromanagement is an absolute joke. Micromanagement is a tool used by the incompetent. and sorry, if, if I offend anyone, tough, because if you’re using micromanagement, you’re an incompetent leader and you shouldn’t be in that position.
[00:10:17] Robert Hossary: And it could be controversial, but you’re not going to get anything done by telling people what to do. And you should be grateful that these people work with you. now having said all that, I’m not saying let people walk all over you. I’m not saying work with incompetent people or people who can’t do their jobs, but give them room, let them do it and understand it is a privilege to lead other human beings.
[00:10:47] Robert Hossary: Yeah. Well said. It comes down to respect.
[00:10:50] Diana White: Now, I’ll, piggyback on that and say, it’s not just incompetence. If it were just incompetence, we could handle that. There are classes for that. It’s insecurity.
[00:11:01] Robert Hossary: Oh, yes.
[00:11:02] Diana White: It’s insecurity and insecurity. you can’t teach, unfortunately, that out of a lot of people.
[00:11:09] Diana White: That, stays with them because that’s something that they have to discover and deal with on their own. And I, I have always led from the standpoint of When I understood what real leadership means, and I dove into my servant leadership, right, that it is a privilege and an honor that people of high quality have said, we will follow you, because we know that you’re going to help us be the best we can be. There’s, not a better compliment than that.
[00:11:37] Siebe Van Der Zee: There’s the trust.
[00:11:39] Diana White: There’s the trust, the trust, the absolute trust. And, and the, the safe space to be able to say, hey, Diana, you know what? I think you’re a heck of a leader, but this one thing, like, I think you’re chasing the wrong, gopher here.
[00:11:54] Diana White: To be able to challenge me and make me see what they see. It’s a give and take.
[00:12:00] Robert Hossary: Isn’t that wonderful though, it is the trust, it is, it is all that. I mean, there was, someone you interviewed, Siebe, Joost.
[00:12:07] Siebe Van Der Zee: Nikki Lesterberg.
[00:12:08] Robert Hossary: Yeah. Thank you. and, you know, he was talking about being a shit screen.
[00:12:13] Robert Hossary: Which also helps build that trust.
[00:12:16] Siebe Van Der Zee: Yeah, yeah.
[00:12:17] Robert Hossary: Because you’re the buffer between all the politics and nonsense and your team who are doing the, you know, doing their work. it definitely is trust and it definitely is insecurity, Diana, I agree with you there.
[00:12:32] Siebe Van Der Zee: I have another lesson from one of our guests, Alberto Esparza, and he is, as we know, a charitable leader helping young people in underserved communities for so many years.
[00:12:43] Siebe Van Der Zee: Great individual. One of his lessons related to leadership was, leadership is defined by the community. right, it’s not far from the first lesson that we talked about. It’s a privilege, not entitlement, defined by the community. It’s not defined by the leader, him or herself. It’s defined by the people that work, interact with that individual.
[00:13:05] Siebe Van Der Zee:
[00:13:05] Diana White: I’ll tell you this. I actually just went through this with an organization that I’ve been coaching where there is a leader in place. But nobody looks to this person as the leader, right? There is another person who has a stronger personality, a stronger sense of why, a stronger vision.
[00:13:25] Diana White: So, you can have somebody that was put in place to lead.
[00:13:29] Diana White: Your people, the people, will always tell you who they actually want to follow. And that may not always be the person that was put in place to lead. That’s very clear. Robert, what are your thoughts on that?
[00:13:41] Robert Hossary: That’s a little too deep for me. I’m still, I, I am, I’m still trying to, digest what you just said.
[00:13:49] Robert Hossary: I don’t know. I don’t know about, I mean, look, I, I understand what you’re saying, Diana, and I, I’m not disagreeing with it. I don’t know whether the community, is the one that determines the leader, because I see a lot of people out there that don’t get that one word that you just said, Diana, the why. So having, having community with the wrong why, or with their interpretation of the why, that isn’t in tune with the organization or the mission, might not come up with the right leader.
[00:14:27] Diana White: But we, we, no one said that it was, it was the right pick.
[00:14:31] Siebe Van Der Zee: Exactly.
[00:14:32] Diana White: We didn’t say it was the right pick, Robert. We said that they will pick who they think, whether it’s wrong or right.
[00:14:40] Siebe Van Der Zee: Okay. And even bad leadership is leadership, unfortunately.
[00:14:44] Diana White: Siebe is right. Siebe is right.
[00:14:46] Robert Hossary: We see that around the world today.
[00:14:48] Diana White: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
[00:14:50] Siebe Van Der Zee: There we go.
[00:14:50] Robert Hossary: okay. Well, I, I really don’t have much to add to that.
[00:14:54]
[00:14:54] Siebe Van Der Zee: I have another lesson to throw in the, in the mix here. from one of our recent guests, Per Ohstrom from Sweden, the fractional chief marketing officer. The lesson got to me; officers eat last. Turn the org chart upside down and be a servant leader.
[00:15:11] Siebe Van Der Zee: Officers eat last. it’s not uncommon. I’ve heard it before, but I think it’s powerful. As a leader, you don’t put yourself necessarily in the primary spots. You look out, and Robert, you said it, and Diana, you said it as well, you look out for your people.
[00:15:27] Robert Hossary: And you’ve seen a lot of memes on LinkedIn, on Facebook, whatever, blah blah, where they’ve got the leader out front as opposed to behind.
[00:15:37] Robert Hossary: Yeah, we’ve all seen those memes, we understand that, but the truth is, who executes it? And it’s the leaders that actually execute that, that are good leaders. It’s not the ones that, will spout. any kind of platitude to make them seem great. It’s the ones that actually do the work.
[00:15:58] Siebe Van Der Zee: Well, that has the value. Yeah.
[00:16:00] Robert Hossary: The ones that have the value, the ones that, that look after their people, the ones that feel privileged, and do everything that you and Diana just talked about.
[00:16:09] Robert Hossary: You’ve got to be there for them and not for your own ego.
[00:16:14] Diana White: I have a real-world example of that. So, when I was in retail eons ago, I had a store, and it needed some help. It needed some TLC. and rally the team. Oh gosh, they hated me at first because who, who likes change, right? And so here I am coming in and shaking it everything up.
[00:16:37] Diana White: And finally, we got to a point, you know, in our team dynamics where we were performing, man, we were doing it. And, my boss came through We did a walkthrough, and he asked me all these different questions, and I said, you know, so and so did this, and so and so came up with the idea for that, and so and so was able to solve this after months of not being able to get it done, and so and so, and he stopped me after a while, and he said, and I know in hindsight and Because he’s a very good man.
[00:17:06] Diana White: He was trying to give me advice about showing what I bring to the table. And so, he stopped me, and he said, listen, when I bring the big bosses around, if you keep talking like this, they’re going to say, well, what, what do we need you for? What have you done? And I just looked at him and I said, well, who do you think motivated them?
[00:17:25] Diana White: Who do you think motivated them and empowered them to be the best that they can be so they can fix these problems? I don’t want to be here 24 seven I don’t want to be here on a Sunday night at eight o’clock trying to fix everything myself so I can tell the big bosses I did it all. That doesn’t make a team.
[00:17:42] Diana White: and I think for me, that was one of the first times that I ever stood up for my leadership style. And I’ve never looked back. I’ve always been the person to say, this person did it. If you’re smart, you’re going to know that they did it because I gave them the tools, I gave them the resources, I had my pom poms, I was the cheerleader.
[00:18:02] Diana White: If you’re smart, you’re going to realize that, because that’s my leadership style. But they did it.
[00:18:06] Robert Hossary: Give credit where credit is due?
[00:18:08] Diana White: Exactly. Exactly.
[00:18:10] Robert Hossary: I think that’s something that, that Ori Eisen said, which is, you can do anything if you don’t care who gets the credit.
[00:18:18] Diana White: Yes.
[00:18:20] Siebe Van Der Zee: I’m, I’m thinking of also a lesson from Will Sarney, the, the, thought leader and water strategy expert. it’s, it’s sort of a, maybe curious lesson, but his lesson was the power of unreasonable people. And when I think of that in a management situation, in a leadership situation, sometimes there are people I would say needed that have a completely different view than the general view of how things should be done.
[00:18:47] Siebe Van Der Zee: And I think a leader in an organization or in whatever situation needs to have an open mind when it comes to people who think. differently. And the way Will Sarney said unreasonable, well, that’s how you perceive it, of course. But I think that open mind really creates a team because every person in the organization can say, well, I look at it differently, but at least my opinion is respected.
[00:19:13] Siebe Van Der Zee: And perhaps we can learn something from that person that has a different idea. And my gosh, we should have learned something from that person. So, I think it’s part of leadership, what we’re talking about. All these elements are, are, I think, very relative.
[00:19:26] Siebe Van Der Zee: I’ll throw out a few more lessons from our guests.
[00:19:30] Siebe Van Der Zee: Zoe Fragou, the, organizational psychologist and, and, performance coach, one of her lessons was be the person you needed when you were younger.
[00:19:40] Siebe Van Der Zee: Does that, connect somewhere?
[00:19:42] Robert Hossary: Oh yeah. But isn’t that something that. We all try to do, we all try to be the parent, when we’re parents, we try to parent the way that we wished we were, we had been parented. and when we lead, we try and lead the way we wish we were led.
[00:19:58] Robert Hossary: but she’s absolutely right. If you know what would have made you a better person, a better professional, then do it for someone else.
[00:20:09] Siebe Van Der Zee: I don’t think it’s an automatic. I know what you’re saying. I don’t think that every person grows up that way and say, you know, I learned lessons when I was a kid and now that I’m at this age, I’m going to take care of other people because of what happened.
[00:20:21] Siebe Van Der Zee: Unfortunately, I don’t see it that, that, that’s not necessary. A lot of people, a lot of people all over the world are selfish.
[00:20:29] Robert Hossary: Yes.
[00:20:30] Siebe Van Der Zee: Can I say that?
[00:20:32] Robert Hossary: Yes, you can, and I agree, whether it’s selfishness or whether it’s just, ignorance, it comes from a lack of self-awareness. I mean, this is my soapbox, I’ll be jumping on the self-awareness soapbox for the rest of my life because I totally believe in it.
[00:20:51] Robert Hossary: But if you understand yourself, you can understand how you are treating other people, you can look inwards. Much easier. And be the person that you wished you had when you were young. and lead in that way. I agree with Zoe.I agree with that sentiment. I wish more people would do it, and you are right.
[00:21:14] Robert Hossary: Siebe people are selfish. no matter what they say to themselves, until they’re aware of their own feelings and why they do things, they might not change.
[00:21:24] Diana White: So, the wakeup call that I had for myself going into my leadership journey was that Monday morning quarterbacking was a lot easier to do than actually lead. But I did understand that it was important for me to be the kind of leader I wish I had.
[00:21:43] Diana White: I was actually lucky enough to have the kind of leader I will always strive to be. So, I’ve had both sides of it, right? But then there’s another piece of it where I realized, oh man, this stuff that I thought was stupid, and I said, if I ever got into a leadership role, you’re not going to find me doing, I got to do it.
[00:22:02] Diana White: Like, this is just how it is. I may have hated it. I didn’t understand where it was coming from, but it wasn’t because this leader was a bad person. It’s par for the course. It’s part of the job. And that was a really rude awakening, for me that there were some things that were wrong, and I could absolutely address and change and be a better leader because I’ve seen the wrong way to do it.
[00:22:25] Diana White: And then there were some things that I thought, hey, when I become a leader, I’m not doing that. I’m not going to prescribe to that. And yeah, you kind of have to. It’s icky, but sometimes you got to do it if the team is going to progress.
[00:22:39] Siebe Van Der Zee: And this is so interesting because in our conversation, we are evolving to steps and solutions, steps we can take and solutions, action steps, right?
[00:22:48] Diana White: That’s what leaders do, Siebe.
[00:22:50] Siebe Van Der Zee: Absolutely. And what you just mentioned, Diana, but also Robert, what you just mentioned, it really, caught my attention when it comes to one of our early guests, Jacob Butler, a Native American artist and currently member of the Tribal Council of the Salt River Pima Indian Community.
[00:23:09] Siebe Van Der Zee: He had two lessons, and when you listen to his episode, he had a rough upbringing. It was not easy. It still is not easy for many Indigenous people around the world, I want to say. But he came to a conclusion that You don’t want to go through life being angry and upset and point fingers at people. And two of his lessons, I want to quote quickly, one is addressing conflict analytically to find common ground.
[00:23:38] Siebe Van Der Zee: Well, coming from a person, again, that had to deal with all kinds of negativity, and I put it mildly, His other lesson was address issues with solutions, not complaints, because it’s so easy to point at each other and say, you are wrong and I’m right and, it basically gets out of shape where it’s like, come on, let’s be reasonable people.
[00:23:58] Siebe Van Der Zee: Find common ground, focus on solutions. Wisdom from Jacob Butler. What are your thoughts?
[00:24:04] Diana White: I love that. I love that. I just recently adopted, I guess it’s an old improv trick, right? I went to a seminar, and somebody said to try it. I said, hey, I’ll try it. And I love it. So that the improv thing is, you can never say no.
[00:24:18] Diana White: If you’re on stage and you’re doing improv, whatever the person volleys at you, you have to volley it back. Otherwise, the whole sketch goes to pot, right? You have to always say yes. And so, in, in the conversation, in the, in the communication world, it’s instead of saying but or no, it’s yes and, no matter what they’ve said, you say yes and, and then you build upon it.
[00:24:45] Diana White: If you can’t tear it down, if you have to build upon it, then you’re forced to say your piece. in a way that is positive and constructive. You’re forced to build upon what they’ve said, if you’re doing it right, somebody could be an asshole. Yes, and you’re wrong, right? Somebody could do that. But if you’re, if you’re really embracing the exercise, you have to communicate differently because there’s no way that you can come out with a negative if you’re saying yes and, and keeping the ball volleyed.
[00:25:17] Diana White: and it’s, it’s been weird, but it’s been awesome because some of these conversations that it would have been deadlocked are now strategic kind of collaborations because we haven’t shut each other down.
[00:25:29] Robert Hossary: From Jacob’s point of view and Jacob’s perspective, I understand being analytical about the opposing side.
[00:25:38] Robert Hossary: And using Diana’s technique, you should be able to come to a resolution most of the time. There are ridiculous arguments out there that don’t have two sides. And I know our co-host Jeff would disagree with me vehemently about that. Jacob’s episode is one of my favorites, and I find a lot of what he says very wise, very calming, and it got me thinking a lot, about everything.
[00:26:07] Robert Hossary: So, I, totally agree with Jacob and his approach, I really have nothing to say but to endorse, Jacob’s lesson,
[00:26:14] Siebe Van Der Zee: if I can add one more, which is Jim Longley.
[00:26:19] Robert Hossary: and I think this is something that you’ll agree with, our audience will agree with. Jim Longley said in one of the interviews with us, every organization has a boss. Not many organizations have a leader.
[00:26:32] Diana White: Yes,
[00:26:33] Siebe Van Der Zee: it’s a great, great lesson. It’s a great lesson for everyone to understand because there is a difference between a boss and a leader.
[00:26:40] Robert Hossary: There is a massive difference and all I can say to our audience is you’ve got to just try and be nice. Don’t, take, is one of Siebe’s lessons, what, what was your lesson, Siebe?
[00:26:53] Siebe Van Der Zee: Don’t accept.
[00:26:54] Robert Hossary: Don’t accept. Don’t accept second place, when it comes to the quality of work you receive.
[00:27:00] Robert Hossary: Also, don’t be an arsehole. Be nice to people, treat them with respect and dignity, they’ll treat you with respect and dignity, and your entire enterprise will flourish.
[00:27:14] Robert Hossary: People are people, and they all get treated the same way, they all react the same way.
[00:27:21] Robert Hossary: So, all these lessons that you’ve heard today, all of the anecdotes and experiences that Siebe, Diana, and I have had and shared with you, these are things that we want to share with the world because nobody’s doing it anymore. Everyone is either taking pictures of their food, or worrying about their body shape, or what have you.
[00:27:47] Robert Hossary: Selfies. What we’re doing is we’re giving you the experience selfie. We’re giving you our experience to help make you a little wiser with each lesson. With that said, I’d like to thank Diana for joining us and Siebe for leading the conversation.
[00:28:06] Robert Hossary: you have been listening to a special episode of 10 Lessons Learned. Our mission of 10 Lessons is to focus on wisdom and permanent knowledge. It’s not so much about the stock market or options or politics, no matter how relevant these things are today. Our goal here at 10 Lessons is to capture lessons from our guests.
[00:28:28] Robert Hossary: and share them as far and wide as possible. We hope you enjoyed the show. We’ll include the guest names in the links in the show notes of all the lessons that we discussed. Please don’t forget to comment and review the show and tell us what you think of this new format.
[00:28:45] Robert Hossary: You can also email us at podcast at 10lessonslearned. com. I hope that you’ll subscribe to the show, so you don’t miss any of our regular episodes or any of these new episodes. If a majority of the audience likes it, we’ll continue to make them.
[00:29:01] Robert Hossary: And remember, we’re making the world wiser.
[00:29:05] Diana White: Lesson by lesson.
[00:29:08] Siebe Van Der Zee: Thank you. And stay safe.

Thanks to our 10 Lessons team that make our show possible: Our Episode Editor Codie Comeau, Marketing and social media managed by Yi Wang, and our Producer Robert Hossary. Sponsored as always by Professional Development Forum. You can find the www.professionaldevelopmentforum.org.

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